MirrorMirror:

No argument here...

Creative - I can't wait for you to comment on Part Duo.

In part one I was attempting to 'reconcile' what Christians believe by portraying a God befitting their personifications.

Part two is quite different.

Di:

I am sorry, I read it and was kinda waiting on others...while reading elsewhere...

I will respond right now, as I did the first...

Ok Di, here we go huh?


Honestly, It may suit us much better to not make an attempt at any presupposition of intent, again it proves to be nothing but unfounded and biased speculation. All talk of God's purposes, intentions, goals, preferences, and/or aims is just an anthropomorphizing fictional creation of man. The personification of 'God'. Man creating God in man's image.

The laws of nature which prove true are the laws which nature abides...


Perhaps Spinoza said it best...

"That eternal and infinite being we call God, or Nature, acts from the same necessity from which he exists"

"Nature has no end set before it … All things proceed by a certain eternal necessity of nature."

God is an indivisible, uncaused, substantial whole — in fact, it is the only substantial whole.


Di... I am of Taoist thought... I will not paint myself into a corner concerning existential philosophy...

if God is all-knowing and know your destiny before you were created then there is no "Free Will" or "Free Choice" because all your decisions are being manipulated to climax to a pre-determine outcome so you are merely a pawn in a game called "Gods Divine Plan"

Im not goig to go off on a side trip and relate what many of you are saying changed slightly into a wiccan/pagan belief structure. They do the same thing, but unlike Christianity just fails to address it.

Here is the fatal flaw in all your arguemnts except for BillingsDreamer. Who I give kudos to for answering in an intellgient non argumentave manner.

God is God, you cant attempt to figure out God using your own understand of how things are. Everything doesnt have a begining and an end, in any religion. The only place everything has a begining and an end is in our universe. Even then, what happens at the end of the universe?

The reason God is God is because we cant do what he can do. If we could, we would all be Gods.

Oh, and before anybody makes a comment on why Billingsdreamer was giving the best answer was becasue the questions were about christianity. he was answerign fromt the Bble, the accepted word of God in Christianity, everybody else was attempting to answer it from their own human minds.

In response to funches:

Ya know funches, I agree with your conclusion, but not entirely based on an omniGod concept. While it is indeed a sound argument you have given here against 'free will' in the biblical sense. The issue when presented as such is easily confused, often by the interchanging of the terms 'free will' and 'choice'.

The fact is every 'choice' one makes is a conditioned response... dictated by attributes and/or affections of experience. An extrapolation of experience.

That is to say, one cannot do what one does not 'know' to do. One's 'choices' are always a conditioned and causual affect. We do what we 'know'...

There is no absolute 'free will', moreover as a result of cause but the mind is determined to 'will this' or 'will that' by a cause that is also determined by another, and this again by another, and another, etc.,etc..

All you are saying here is that God is unreasonable, and therefore anything goes. But this is flawed thinking. There are direct contradictions and inconsistencies in the biblical picture of God. Just to say that we can’t figure out why God does things doesn’t excuse inconsistencies and contradictions. If you are going to go to that extreme then why not believe in Greek Mythology?

In short, there is absolutely no reason why anyone should believe the Biblical picture over any other picture of God. Any argument that God is unreasonable and therefore anything goes, can be applied to all religions.

There is nothing that sets the Bible apart as being unique. On the contrary the Biblical story of Jesus is a very common theme that had been told over and over in previous mythologies. Why would the creator of this universe come to earth and repeat a scenario that man kind clearly made up?

To me, that would be an extremely uncreative God. The fact that the biblical stories are almost verbatim copies of other mythologies that man had created prior to the stories of the Bible is reasonable proof that it can’t possibly be divine.



Actually, if you stop and think about the concept of the religion it already suggests that we are Gods in our own right.

The biblical picture of God has God being a separate entity from us. However, what they fail to realize is that if God is a separate entity from us, then we must also be separate entries from God. In other words, we must be able to exist without God in our own right! But if we can do that, then we would be Gods in our own right.

The idea of God being separate from us is actually a very weak philosophical idea.

Pantheistic philosophies have solved this problem by recognizing that we are a manifestation of God. God is within every single one of us and cannot be separated from us because without God we would have no existence. We cannot exist outside of God. God is everything. The idea of going to hell is silly because in order to God to hell God would need to come with us. We simply can’t exist without God. It’s absurd to think that we could exist without God. To believe that you’d have to believe that you are a separate entity from God in your own right. But that would make you a God in your own right.

Finally, there’s no need for God to know everything. God doesn’t need to know what will happen next. All God needs to know is what the possibilities are. That’s all that God needs to know. And God set the limits for what the possibilities can be. So for God there are no surprises, outside of the scope of possibility.

Think of it like throwing dice. When you throw dice you have no idea what number will come up. However, you know what is possible. You can only thrown a 2 thru 12 and only the whole numbers between them. So when you throw the dice even though you have no idea which of these possibilities will come up, you know what the range of possibilities are. In other words, you aren’t going to be shocked by really a 13. That simply can’t happen. You aren’t going to roll fractional numbers. All you are ever going to see come up is 2 thru 12 and the whole numbers between them.

This is the way that God runs the universe. God has no clue what you are going to do next. But God does know what you can and can’t do. You’re not ever going to surprise God by doing something that God doesn’t already know is “possible”. But which of all possible things you are going to chose God does not know. It’s not necessary for God to know that. God doesn’t want to know that. If God already knew precisely how everything will unfold than what would be in it for God???

Why would God want to just baby-sit a universe and a heaven where he knows precisely what will happen all the time? That would reduce God to redundancy. Also it would be utterly silly to talk about such a God having a “Master Plan”. What sense would it even make for God to have a “Master Plan” in an eternity where he already knows exactly how everything will turn out?

This idea that God knows the future is clearly a manmade notion that wasn’t even well thought out.

The Biblical picture of God is clearly wrong.

The pantheistic view of God is much more reasonable.

Steve...


Your claim:

Oh, and before anybody makes a comment on why Billingsdreamer was giving the best answer was becasue the questions were about christianity. he was answerign fromt the Bble, the accepted word of God in Christianity, everybody else was attempting to answer it from their own human minds.

My response:

>>>>>>> I respect Art for his manner. I respect Art for his conviction in his belief. Just because I hold different ones does not distract from this respect for his person. He knows our beliefs do not coincide with each other. I respect him no matter whether we agree.

Concerning the last sentence above; What makes the mind of any author within the Bible any different than any other author's mind? <<<<<<<


Your statement:

God is God, you cant attempt to figure out God using your own understand of how things are. Everything doesnt have a begining and an end, in any religion. The only place everything has a begining and an end is in our universe. Even then, what happens at the end of the universe?

My response:

>>>>>>> According to the Bible, there is indeed a beginning. So I am at a loss for understanding how you have arrived at this conclusion???? It goes against what you suggest to use for reference material????
To answer the question... who knows? <<<<<<<



None of that refutes the issues I have presented...

Abra:

Sounds like a case of divine diplomatic immunity...

Christianity can’t possibly be true.

The idea that God has a “Master Plan” yet knows precisely how everything will unfold is an inconsistent and contradictive idea. What sense does it make to have a “Master Plan” when nothing can be changed from how God already knows that it will unfold???

Moreover, if one believes that God does have a “Master Plan”, yet everything is predetermined, then anything that happens must have been part of God’s “Master Plan”. And that includes child abuse, rape, the holocaust and all other things that we consider to be Evil.

If God has a “Master Plan” and knew how everything would unfold, then God had planned to create the devil and have man fall to sin.

It’s utterly absurd to talk about a God who has a “Master Plan” in a creation where everything is predetermined and already known by God.

People often talk about God triumphing over Evil. Like as if there is some kind of war going on between God and the Devil. But what kind of war would have a predetermined outcome? Not much of a war if it’s already predetermined who will win.

And again, the whole sick war must have been God’s “Master Plan” in this religion.

There’s just not getting around it.

To claim that things didn’t work out the way God wanted is to do nothing more than to suggest that God is not in control.

The religion requires the mentality of “Have your cake and eat it too!”

Is God in control and all-powerful, and does he have a Master Plan?

If the answer is yes, then everything that happens must necessarily have been part of God’s Master Plan.

If the answer is no, well, then the whole religion falls apart because it claims that God is in control, is all-powerful, and does have a Master Plan.

The religion is a self-contradiction. The God of this religion is an oxymoron.

It can’t be true. Plain and simple. It’s an ancient mythology created by the minds of men.

There’s no getting around it.

but that would be true if people wasn't force to eat food and drink water or seek shelter "if they want to live" ..also people can not control the forces of natures that is apparently controlled by God ..so because of these uncontrollable circumstances is how a God can pre-determine and manipulate the decisions people make

FOR EXAMPLE:
if you lived in one state God can cause a flood to force you to move with relatives to another state and your kids to another school all that can lead you on an unexpected path but all part of his pre-determined "Divine Plan"

in response to funches:

Uh, yup...

Leave out the 'God' playing a role part... and it all makes perfect sense...


Your statement completely supports the notion I presented... when you leave out the 'God' part...

I do not believe in a divine plan...

See and I knew someone was going to do this. You are defending your position over my critic of it from an aspect were you assume I am a Christian defending my religion. I never said I was a christian. This is exaclty why the majority of the arguemnts aasint christianity on here will fail. the writer continualy assumes anybody who questions there thught process must be a Christian.

Additionaly, I believe I stated the same argument and counter arguments, minus the biblical one presented by dreamer, could be used in relation to any religion. A fact you seem to have just greed with. The rest of your post has litte to nothing to do with what I said.

The reason dreamers argument was more substanative than anybody elses was becasue the question was regarding how could the Christian God do something. He answeed the question not from his on thoughts, but from what is accepted within the religion as Gods word.

creative soul - you are arguing against a specific religion by fail to recognize the diferrent denominational beliefs. Further, no religion would exist without Faith. Faith in what we cant prove or understand is what makes it religion. If we could prove and completely understand it we would call it science.

If you asked your friend to pick you up from the gym from work and he said OK, woudl you expect him to be there. If he is a good friend that you blive cares about you then you would. Thast is o differnt than faith. You have faith that he cares about you and will be there, you have no way of knowign for sure until he actualy shows up.

I always try to include what a believer would say in response..and the first thing they would say is that God gave people "Free Will" to make choices...but how can people have "Free Will" to make choices if God already has a Divine Plan that pre-determine everyone's destiny

think of The Divine Plan as people being under the jurisdiction of the laws of physics

and that is why only Gods have "Free Will" any why people don't

In response to Steve:

I argue against the anthropomorphistic notion of 'God'... not any specific religion or denomination...

God being created in man's image...

The omniGod notion...

True premises do not lead to false conclusions...

I do not deny the existance of 'God'...


EDIT:

Funches, I do not disagree with what your conclusions are... I agree with them...

Creative, is never attacking any religion, creative wants to delve into deeper conversations than defense of a religion or lack of one. So you are wrong sir in your presumption of his partiality.

Although he is capable of defending himself, there is no need he is not assuming anything

Do you think that God can't reason. We are the ones who don't make any sense. We protect criminals not the victims. We care more about animals and even trees than human embryos. We attempt to make peace through war. We are the ones who broadcast our plans to our enemies on the TV, radio, and newspapers.

God makes perfect sense. He does not do the stupid things we do.

[quote[

But without experience reason does not exist...does it?
I mean one must have something to hold in comparison.
Do you hold to the claim of an omniscient God, who would already know what would happen?


I am convinced that the God who created the vast universe, molecular structure, flowers, trees, and lovemaking was smart enough to decide what was right and wrong morally without having to experience it directly.

You and I can do the same thing. We don't have to drive our car into a brick wall to know that the outcome will not be good. So, without doing that, we can make a law for ourselves and others that says, "Thou shalt not drive your care into a brick wall."

Thus, without evil being present, and without personally experiencing evil, God knew it was a bad idea to murder, give false testimony in court, take someone else's wife, and so on.

After all, if you look around, and see all that existed before man ever did. You should be able to admit that He is pretty smart.

I once read a comment by a computer professor. He said that in order for us to make a computer that could do all the functions that the organic brain of a human can do, the computer would have to be the size of Texas and three miles hight.

Come on, something like our brain does not evolve. Nothing comes from nothing, and everything in life is degenerating, not getting stronger, more long lasting, or filled with more energy.

You can reason can't you? Then God can too.

Art