To Spider.

You are forever changed by knowledge, so... we move forward.

Romans 1: 1-7. Paul speaks to the church only.

Romans1:8-12 Paul displays his love towards the fellowship.

Romans1:13-32. Paul exhorts the precepts of grace, the justification of faith and the state of man.

Romans 2:1-13. Paul warns against duplicity in judgement, before offering his point about the grace of God. ( please be mindful of his great understanding of all scripture prior, and His present state in the LORD>

Romans 2: 14-16. KJV For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these,having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Suffice it to say, you get my drift.

wouldee,

Romans 2:14-16 isn't speaking of all gentiles, it is specficically about Gentiles who "do by nature the things contained in the law, these,having not the law, are a law unto themselves". I don't believe in universal salvation and I think it is a destructive doctrine. We should spread the gospel and encourage all to accept Jesus as their savior. If all are saved, then why did Jesus tell us to deliver the gospel to the world?

To all that will... i add this.

Romans 2:28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans2: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart,in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Amen

Spider, primarily we are only putting words to what all can inherently know. The gospel, by definition means the good news.

It has been preached throughout the world and continues to be preached. Archeological evidence in the southern U.S. has clearly been discovered that this was so almost 2000 years ago.

You and I are living epistles in our generation.( I hope that doesn't offend you that I include myself). As are others. Ho Hum!

The only thing that is destructive is sharing a watered down delusion. The only destruction that must occur is the removing of spiritual wickedness that blinds the heart from standing on the promises of God. Isreal and Judah failed quite miserably as they sought their own good, and demonstrated their haughtyness and duplicity before all of mankind, insisting on enslaving the simple among them and showing preference to all those that decorated themselves with useless distractions.

Needless to say, they embarrassed themselves and insulted God.

Further, they insulted the Lord when he walked and talked and displayed the power of truth and righteousness as it is meant to be displayed, showing that the tongue speaking the words of The Almighty, even with a carnal voice has the power to immedately accomplish its own will. We have that power, my friend. Do you know how to use it?

Can you pray someone in?
Do your prayers have the power of The Holy Spirit to deliver the manifestation of your requests of God in Jesus' name?

The power of the gospel is in the Holy Spirit.
The Power of the gospel is in the all that is given by God to heal the sick, cast out demons, etc.

Never once have I heard of that in all of this debate, Spider.

Perhaps your doctrine is alienating others needlessly because you are acting independent of the Holy Spirit and not representing the truth.

It's not our gospel, Spider. It's the Lord's.
And those that preach it ought to know it, and have the power to deliver the gift.

Since this is where you want to take it, I would remind you that the Holy Spirit is given to the Christian for such a purpose. We are witnesses of His Power, not our own. We have to die daily that He may live in us. Isn't that the deal?? You were given your salvation, in exchange for dying to yourself and living to God. Let God preach then.

Quite often, Spider, we Christians get caught up in the zeal for having been touched by the Holy Spirit, and forget to press in and let Him have His way!!! As I've revisited, Isreal did the same. But the record shows that the old prophets of the Lord displayed great miraculous supernatural intervening feats, as did the apostles in the early church, as do many today.

No one touches that.

The first time to put it out there is the hardest, Spider.

But if you have the Holy Spirit, use it. It doesn't come and go.

Are you clean enough to act on a request without hesitation and at the most inopportune time?

Walking in the Spirit is a Commandment to us, is it not, Spider?

What could you or I have that is so desireable to the masses if it's not apparent?

How many Christians avoid you because the fear the Lord is with you and He may put forward a charge through you?

How many churches have been started with your Holy Spirit filled prayers and intercessions?

Have you brought someone to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ that has brought the baptism of Fire upon the to preach in the Power of the Spirit?

Do you have care over the Spiritual health of the the baby Christians you've tendered?

Are you under accountability to an elder christian?

Does any mature christian have oversight of your doctrine?


I ask all these questions of you, Spider, because you suggest without substantiation that my understanding of the gospel is destructive and independent of the original intent.

The gospel is not as you say, something that we encourage all to accept. It is the invitation to call on God for oneself and find Him. Seek and you shall find.

Nor did I suggest all are saved. Saved from what? Sin?

Furthermore, if I'm out in the weeds, why do you insist on dignifing my errors by asking me to explain why Jesus told us to deliver the gospel to the world?

Salvation and redemption are present. All that's necessary, Spider, is acknowledging it. Pretty simple stuff indeed, unless of course, one is afraid of the power and responsibility that goes with actually representing the Lord in his absence.

In closing, Spider, I will correct your misguided remark regarding Romans2:14-16. This passage is contextual and relevant to the presence of grace in the world today and how that the just shall live by faith. Heaven is open to all who believe in God, Christian or not. It is neither universal or exclusive. It is in the Judgement of God and by Jesus Christ.

Before you put another errant word in my mouth and carelessly profer perusal to it by others, Spider, be it known, that my silence will speak for me at that point. To quote you, " I don't believe in universal salvation and I think it is a destructive doctrine" dated 11/12/07 09:59 PM , is nowhere to be found nor suggested in my comments.

wouldee,

==============================================================
All are under grace, since the cross.
==============================================================

When I read the above statement, I believed you were offering the doctrine of universal salvation. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. I should have asked for clarification before I posted.

A wonderful redirection wouldee...simply wonderful...

In another thread, I attempted to point out the fact that Jesus was sent to dispel the old(Law), and live an example of how to think, love, and live...with the ultimate testament being that of giving one's life for all who he loved... which is all... so that they could live... simplistically put, however, I do grasp the deeper truthes also...

May I add the following: Paul speaking to the Ephesians concerning what was... and what IS...

Ephesians 2:14 - 15

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with it's commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create one new man out of two, thus making peace...

Spider, my friend... I truly hope that we all can find and display the peace and love of all that God is... in whatever way His heart can find us...

Wouldee wrote:
"Heaven is open to all who believe in God, Christian or not."

So you're saying that it's not necessary to become a Christian or believe in Christ to get into heaven then?

I've always felt that this is what Jesus had implied as well, but this doesn't seem to be the belief of most Christian religions (or sects). Most of them seem to be under the belief that accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and "Savior" is the only way to obtain eternal life, and of course, they point to John 3:16 as the most obvious verse in the Bible that seems to make this proclamation.

However, have always felt that while John 3:16 offers this as “one way” to eternal life, it does not suggest that it is the “only way”, but this idea is often rejected by most Christians I talk with.

Another argument has been given that what John 3:16 really means is that anyone who accepts the Holy Spirit into their lives (no matter what they perceive the Holy Spirit to be) will obtain eternal life. The fact that God gave his “only begotten Son” to point this out does not mean that a believe in that specific event is necessary.

In other words, it’s not necessary to believe in the messenger, it’s only necessary to believe in the message.

And the message was “not” that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, but rather the message was simply the moral values that Jesus taught while he was alive and therefore anyone who aspires to this level of morality and lives in harmony with the holy spirit has indeed been “saved” even if they don’t recognize Christ as having been God. That part of it was never really necessary.

This I have always believed. And, in fact, I must say Wouldee that your post has been a revelation for me. Not so much in the conclusions, but rather in how it might actually be “explained”. I can now imagine a scenario where I can embrace Jesus as an incarnation of God and at the same time denounce the many misinterpretations and myths that have overwhelmed his message.

Creativesoul wrote:
“In another thread, I attempted to point out the fact that Jesus was sent to dispel the old(Law), and live an example of how to think, love, and live...”

I have suggest this as well, and I do believe it is clear that Jesus did dispel the old (Law), and lived an example of the new. I think the most blatant example of this is when he suggested “turning the other cheek” which is obvious in direct opposition to “an eye for an eye”.

Many claim that Jesus did to come to change the law and I believe that the accounts of him actually quote him as having stated as much. However, this presents a problem if true, because then he would have stated one thing and clearly have done another. Something has to give, and I would say that the error must be in the recount of the life of Jesus. In other words, we have no choice but to accept that the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, may not be perfect. In fact, knowing that all of these men were indeed mortal men there is no reason we should believe that their accounts should be perfect.

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about whether there might be any possible way to “save” Jesus. Is there any possible way to save Jesus from the obvious confusion and misunderstandings of “Christianity”, and today, after reading your post (Wouldee), I’m starting to believe that their very well may be a way to save Jesus.

The intellectual implications are profound! However, it would require denouncing many of the misguided notions of most religions that claim to be founded on the Gospel of Christ. That part is just unavoidable.

Abra, you should hear what the Lord thinks of all the error!!!

He doesn't have too many too talk freely with.

He's put it to me that too much has been said and written already, and tha before I was known by Him.

He threw me at the churches and it scared me at first.

But it was His presence on me that gave the entrance. He wielded me in the churches like a bright new shiny toy and had great fun loosing His Spirit at will quite often. Many people got the Holy Ghost ( as I call Him heheh) and went on to do the same.

But in those early days of the anointing on my liffe, I just assumed it was a normal occurance and that I was only beginning to see what the Churches had always known.

Sadly, that was and is not the case. Nor is what was happening normal. But I didn't know any better, and was consumed by the attention He drew. Later I began to see the cracks, and positioning and grandstanding and the fear of me, and the threat that I had become to many's heritage, or reward, or fame, or whatever you want to call it. Hell came out to greet me but the Lord always kept me from great harm, even though many sought my life!!!

Bikers, badboys, wildmen and silly women have gone on to do great things in the Lord as a result of those days. They too thought it normal to walk in the Spirit and do the Work and take the back seat to the peacocks!!!

But then I decided to stop it and see if it all subsided. It did. I went about one on one as the Lord put people in my life, and gave Him them.

I backed further up.....to quietness and study. To scholastic mining of the Word. You can't imagine how much is missed. The old languages never did get adequately transliterated, but that's not the big event, only my personal enrichment.

These many quiet years since those days, now walking quietly with the Lord have revealed many great truths.

Foremost among them is that He is absolutely in control of everything that goes on in the world today. He doesn't need to be saved...He's doing FINE!!!! He's got it goin on!!! Big Time.

He does as He pleases and no one stops HIM!!!

We as a nation are now in Iraq. But reading Jeremiah 50, 51 and 52 and one can't help but wonder what He thinks of the U.S. when considering our role in bringing the old prophesies to bear in our lifetime. He's having His way and using the American Military as a sword, but not as a sword of His pleasure, but as sword in bringing about the madness that He has purposed. It's not going to be pretty for us as a nation to be part of the mess He decries as utter wickedness!!

That rant aside, He is either in control of everything or in control of nothing. It cannot be both ways.

He speaks to all, listens to the thoughts of all, knows every secret, can manuever who He wishes into trouble or out of it.
He can plant a thought in anyone's head at any time, if it suits His purposes. He can make a client think that they need me more than they don't need me. He can move me here, or there and my needs are still met. If something or someone in my life is offensive, he can redirect or reposition my daily life or the daily life of others to remove the concern. It can go either way, but in the end, te result is always much more fun and leisurely. How about you? Or anyone else? It's true for all, we just have to reflect quietly and thoughtfully a bit to see how the turns in the road had brought a better today. How He does that is beyond me, but He does that with 5-6 billion people!!!!

My heart is warmed by the kind words. Never expected to hear any of that. I thought I was opening a can of worms that was gonna make a mess for me. Shows how wrong I can be. Not to underestimate anyone, but I don't think of my understanding in certain things as being much significance to anyone else.

Life is an amazing thing and so much more are the living in tthis life.

PEACE, OUT!

Wouldee wrote:
“He doesn't need to be saved...He's doing FINE!!!!”

I think you misunderstood me.

I wasn’t suggested that Jesus needed help. I was talking about saving his message from the contamination of religion.

Obviously if he wants us to get his message to other people then we need to know precisely what that message is.

You had stated earlier:

Wouldee wrote:
"Heaven is open to all who believe in God, Christian or not."

This is obviously not the same message that is being preached by most Christian churches. Most of them hold that it’s is of utmost importance that people accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. That’s their central theme.

If that’s not the message of Jesus, then the message has been contaminated is all I’m saying.

It's the original message that I was talking about "salvaging".

why has thou forsaken me

adj4u, that's an amazing response. When He said that on the cross, I am reminded of Psalms 22. This song of David sstarts out with this statement and goes on to describe the death on the cross. A must read for anyone that may believe as I do, that He was singing this song and not whining and pining to the end...but rather having fun reminding the priests attending that things are not what they seem, after all. I keep saying, He has a sense of humor.

a sample....
Psalms22:29. All they that be fat upon the earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.


ABRA,

I understood you quite well and I agree. Ergo my comments about my personal life. That's a big part of why I backed out of those same churches, that I had never been to at all in the first31 years of my life.

I can only add that it doesn't seem fair....almost as though His thread has been hi-jacked


Maybe info on Dr. Carltton Pearson can be googled and marvelled at. He, too has come to this same conclusion, but says some different things about this very concept. There are a few others, and greatly scorned by the fundies and the evangies.

I've written to him as well in years gone by...




E'li, E'li, lama sabachthani? indeed.

Oh...lol...be my guest, hi-jack away !!!

This perception rather interests me actually...

wouldee,

Carlton Pearson's teaching of "inclusion" is widely accepted as heresay. Carlton Pearson believes that everyone will go to heaven...it seemed like you denied beleiving in that doctrine. I'm very confused as to what you believe, I have sent you an email.

I too, am awaiting further clarification... and I would guess that my magician friend is also... so, please... although I have not sent an e-mail, I would like to learn more of your belief system, my friend... if you would allow us...

Good morning to you spider...

Woudee wrote:
“I can only add that it doesn't seem fair....almost as though His thread has been hi-jacked

Creativesoul wrote:
“Oh...lol...be my guest, hi-jack away !!!”

I may be mistaken, but I got the impression that Wouldee was abstractly referring to Jesus when he said that His thread has been hi-jacked. Meaning that the message of Jesus has been hi-jacked by the churches.

I’ve certainly in agreement with this all along. And I know that many people don’t understand where I’m coming from. Many believe that I’m just out to denounce the Bible and Christianity. That’s not exactly true.

My purpose is to suggest that the religions of “Christianity” in all their forms and sects, have indeed gotten the message of Jesus wrong, at least with respect to the priorities of His message.

As far as ‘denouncing’ the Bible, I’m quite sure that I’ve been misunderstood in that regard too. I don’t denounce the Bible as having absolutely nothing to do with God whatsoever (although I believe that I may have actually inadvertently posted those words when what I really meant at the time is that the Bible is neither the VERBATIM word of God, nor is it the EXCLUSIVE word of God.

In other words, I certainly believe that much of what is in the Bible is truth, but there are parts that were either, originally intended to be nothing more that allegories (and have been interpreted to be facts), and other parts that may well have referred to historical events but have been confused (such as the life and message of Jesus).

I guess all I’m really saying is that I disagree that the Bible itself can be taken verbatim as the “gospel truth’ word-for-word, and that all the rest of God’s creation should be ignored!

God obviously wrote the universe. And therefore we should never ignore God’s creation as being the ultimate ‘writings’ of God.

I’m not familiar with Carlton Pearson's teachings, I’ll have to see if I can find an abstract on him to get a sense of what he’s saying.

I believe that Jesus was a man (not born of a virgin). However, since I hold a pantheistic world view this means that Jesus was also God. I do entertain that Jesus may well have been extremely ‘enlightened’ to the point of totally realizing his true form. In which case, he would have become “God incarnated”.

In this way, I can believe that Jesus was God. However, this view disassociates him from the God depicted in the Old testament in ways that are not easy to explain. Jesus would still have been that God too, since Jesus would be the ONLY God. Therefore if there was any truth at all to the God of Abraham then Jesus was certain that God as well.

The question then becomes this: How much of the Old Testament was truly inspired by God, and how much of it was nothing more than pure imagined fantasy and myth?

I’ll never believe in a verbatim approach to the Bible. As far as I’m concerned such an approach is water over the dam and can’t possibly be true because such an approach is full of impossible contradictions.

Just my thoughts.

LOL... James...

That was also my understanding of wouldee's "hijack" statement... I was merely drawing a humorous parallel... as this "wouldee" has my attention...

And as you already know, I also have a problematic "digestion" of many of todays teachings, especially those of which seem to be mere extrapolations of the "preacher's" own heart... rather than the intended message...

Creativesoul,

yes, Carlton is out there. As I have to responded to Spider in private, Carlton's message is unhoned and new to him. Over time he should get the balance. Much of what he tries to explain is not certain to him. He's on the right track, but adds too much of his own deductions to it for it to be recognized as truth.

But where he is being led to exhort has merit. Like all things, we should chew on the meat and spit out the bones.

Dr. Cecil Williams and Dr. Robert Shuller and his son have some of the picture as well.

However, it's not the end all, be all of life. Just a piece of the depth of Scriptures' riches.

I don't suggest that Hitler, or other infamously deluded characters in history have any part in the promise of God.

We all know of individuals that are quite abhorrant. I don't know any here!!!

ABRA< to humor your clever wit a bit....I did a transliteration of the borders of half the tribe of Manasseh, that did not go in to the promised land with Joshua and Caleb after all the elders that rebelled in the wilderness under Moses' watch had died. It described the borders in geographical fashion, but my heart was led to find what was said that the Lord was trying to get across. It took months to catch the jist of it.

The Hebrew language uses words that can be viewed literally OR figuratively.... so I went there with it to see if it would glean any nuance I had been missing.

This may humor you, as I too am a fan of allegories, metaphors and especially double entendres.

It goes like this, " the cords of forgiveness are like the parched end of a rope in a well whose waters have gone out to sea."

A jew would read this and ponder the euphimism. As with all Scripture. I wwonder how much more of this kind of message is poetically bred into the Old Testament.

I find this thing quite interesting and appropriate to things that historically followed in subsequent generations.

I posted this in a different thread also... but it definitely applies in this thread...




I beleieve that we are ALL quite accurate... to some degree...

Because of my belief that God is THE pure energy source and every thing in this universe is made up of such energy, it is not only His "creation" of sorts, but moreover, his ability to experience by physical means... he lives THROUGH everything... all encompassing... all knowledgeable... as it happens... through all that happens... through all conscious thought...

Nothing is seperate...

We do have a "control", of sorts... as does he, of sorts... You see, in this way God can, and in fact does, play a "role"... He created the "universal laws"... every "mathematical" law known to man, and more... Though we have just begun to grasp the ramifications of such...

He can, has, does, and will continue to reach out to the world offering the wonderful peace and love that is held within the light...His light...pure energy... in whatever ways he deems necessary, according to how many options he has... WE give Him options by OUR choices... while the laws of the universe are, and will always be, at hand.

Nothing "evil" comes from pure energy... until it has been tampered with...by mankind.

I do not believe that He created or experienced "darkness", until man came... thereby lending credence to both, the "free will" notion, and the notion of God's "role" in all of the quite questionable things that happen in this world... not everyone listens to their conscience... but everyone has one, albeit "contaminated" by darkness, should it be... everyone still has one...

Though he knows "all"...he knows all in a present sense... as well as past... the future PERHAPS he has "predicted", through those more channeled into the source of light, based on his past knowledge of the history of life...

The notion of which makes it quite possible to have Jesus... mother Theresa... Ghandi... Dr. Martin Luther King Jr... Paul... John... Bill Clinton(just kidding)...

Those individuals made a choice to desire and seek a blameless and loving existence... God's "original" energy works within them to a greater degree... as it does for all who seek this... pure of heart... this wonderful loving existence... they think of this... they embrace this... they live this... and thereby they also "attract" this...

As well as those who choose to be dishonest, commit murder, and any other hideous "crime of humanity" one can think of... They also lived, thought, and attracted their own negative and dark energy existence... by living, thinking, feeling, and embracing such things... one will "attract" more of these things...

Not everyone listens to the "source"... no matter what method he/she/it chooses to reach us...


Thank you all for researching the scripture, most of which resonates well within me... very enlightening...

And I can definitely see where God has, perhaps, attempted to show us(through these people) what would or could happen should we(humanity) continue on our path of destruction... I do not believe it to be destined though... not as a result of what God "wants"... Moreover, perhaps, as a result of what man has chosen...

One believes what one creates... and one creates what one believes...

For the most part I would agree with you Michael.

Where we differ is in the notion of good and evil. I tend to not label things as such ... they are all experiences. Some choosing to walk in the light ... some choosing to walk in the shadow ... both sides of the same coin ... nothing separate.

If you see a coin on the ground with the tail side up ... can you pick that up while leaving the head side on the ground? We cannot have one without the other. We learn through the contrasts ... and through the contrasts we find our place of balance.

It still all comes through the same creative source. This source, from my understanding, does not judge .. it just creates...and creates...and creates...just what we want... the trouble lies in that most of it is done unconscious so we don't always like our co-creation...

The people responsible for the so-called evil in the world ... are co-creating just like you and I ... they are just creating a very different experience than one we would choose..based upon their choices.