creativesoul,

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I very well may be inclined to think otherwise, however, if my neighbor had pre-existing knowledge of the robbery, actually warned me that my actions were going to cause it to happen, could have prevented it from happening, but stood by and watched it happen....just to say "I told you so!"
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So the people needed more than a warning or a few generations to get their act together? We aren't talking about a simple lesson, we are talking about a spiritual lesson. As any Christian will tell you, humanity is enslaved to sin. The only way to break that slavery is to accept Jesus as Lord. This was part of the lesson that the Israelites should have learned from their time in slavery. Only God could free them from physical slavery to the Babylonians, how much more do we need God to free us from spiritual slavery? When you are looking at living conditions, you will probably decide that the Israelite children would have been better off at home in a loving pagan family. But from God's perspective, earthly troubles are minor when compared to the spiritual. Being enslaved to sin, worshipping objects instead of the Living God, that is what troubled God. To God, the spiritual realm is more real that the physical world. Chirstians are taught that we aren't fighting people, but evil spiritual forces. God's focus is on saving the soul, not making the body comfortable. God tried appealing to their conscience, giving them the Tanakh, sending prophets, plagues of various sorts, poisonous serpents and finally barbaric invaders. God tried so many different things, each progressively worse, each designed to lead the Israelites back to God. People are stubborn and will often rebel against those things which are good for them. God tried and if you take the Old Testament as a whole, God's actions make sense. And when you read Jesus' words as he saw Jerusalem "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" Jesus loved the Jews and it wasn't his highest will that he be forced to send his people to slavery, but the Israelites gave him no choice.

...ummm introducing a naive question...

Why does God care? Why does he care if we worship Him?

That seems like an emotional investment on God's part and a judgment ... and dare I say ... ego-like ...

Even though it does not resonate with me, I am trying to understand the notion ...

I'll share my Rolo's with you creativesoul ...

That's a pretty big deal!!!!!

i see so God tried to show them that if they didn't worship him he would punish them till they did?Thats very vindictive almost a "if i can't have you,no one else can "scenario which suggests immaturity on God's part.I can't believe that is so.What happened to punish the sin,not the sinner?

ArtGurl,

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Why does God care? Why does he care if we worship Him?

That seems like an emotional investment on God's part and a judgment ... and dare I say ... ego-like ...

Even though it does not resonate with me, I am trying to understand the notion ...
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That's the thing, I'm not sure that God gets upset if you don't worship him. That's a choice for you to make, I'm sure God is saddened when someone chooses to not worship him, but I don't know that he gets angry. The situation in which God will get angry with you for not worshipping him is when you make a convenant with him. If you promise to worship him and choose not to, that's when God is angered. That's the point that I was making earlier, once you have promised yourself to God, then God will be jealous (qanna') if you fail to continue worshipping him. Why does he care? That's explained by the fact that the saved are called "The Bride of Christ". When you dedicate yourself to God, God dedicates himself to you, forming a spiritual marriage. And for any marriage to be healthy and successful long term, faithfulness of both parties is required.

cutelildevilsmom,

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i see so God tried to show them that if they didn't worship him he would punish them till they did?Thats very vindictive almost a "if i can't have you,no one else can "scenario which suggests immaturity on God's part.I can't believe that is so.What happened to punish the sin,not the sinner?
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God's punishment was removing his protection. God didn't send in the Babylonians. God didn't tell the Babylonians what to do. God stopped protecting Israel and removed his strength from their army. The punishment the Israelites received was the removal of God's blessings from them, it wasn't punishment as we would think of it. God took away what he had given them, he didn't condone or encourage the things that happened to Israel. It greived God for the Israelites to fall away from him and he waited generations before removing his blessing, which shows he was reluctant to see any harm done to them. God was patient and merciful for a long time before he removed his blessings. As Jesus' response was when he saw Jerusalem, he knew that they were going to kill him, he knew that they had killed his messengers in the past and he still felt love for them and protective of them.

spider...

Circles....round and round....circles

You do really contradict yourself often, at times... in your attempts to explain your acceptances within, you absolutely do yourself no justice in my eyes... The saddest part is...in general...I can relate and agree and appreciate your beliefs... however, in specific detail... I wonder why you choose not to think about things differently... you have came across to me as one of the most matter-of-fact people with whom I have come to speak with about Christianity... without the same understanding of the best of them...

Your picture is painted with your brush...as is the case with everyone... and ALL of those brushes are colored with God's paint...

God bless you spider...I believe your intentions are good...

God is jealous also because he hates it when you or I am doing other things when we should be on his clock, He wants you to spend all your time with him, not the world.

Kinda like a child who did not get enough attention when they were young.......

Nah...I do not believe that notion...not one bit.

If he felt that way, why would he let us choose?

HE LETS US CHOOSE because he chooses to let us choose? lol/yup.

If a person accepts another "God" into their life...then God will experience such a thing... and if THAT person lives well within with their choice, then God also will live well... and vice-versa...

He will go through every experience with you...because he IS you... and me...and he....and she...etc.,etc. He will never turn his back on you or I.... no matter what we choose... Hmmmmm... that sorta sounds familiar...

One believes what one creates... and will create what one believes.

All of which God lives as well... through us... in an infinite number of ways... with an infinite number of teachers... all of which are our God... perhaps with a different lesson which we need... All of which come from one source...

creativesoul,

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You do really contradict yourself often, at times...
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You say that and then you don't offer any examples? Personally, I think you found nothing that you could attack, so you decided to attack me. Tell me where I'm contradictory, I'm waiting with bated breath.

Spider ...

I am becoming more confused ...

soooo lemme try to understand ...


Let's just say I am a mom of twins ... one is named Isreal and the other is named Fred.

Now Isreal is sweet and I love him, of course, and he thinks I am wonderful and he cuddles with me .... so I protect him by wrapping him up in protective foam ...

But one day Isreal decides he likes his father more than me ... for whatever reason ... he bought him a fishing pole or something .... and the ungrateful little so and so has forgotten I exist... and in my infinite mom wisdom I decide that I am just not going to protect him anymore ... to teach him a lesson ... for his own good ... of course...

So I remove the protective foam and his brother Fred beat the crap out of him ... and his friends ... and his future children...

I did not tell Fred to do it but I figured he would ... I am the mom and know everything ... of course ...

ummmm .....

this makes no sense to me ...

ArtGurl,

Let me try an analogy, because you are hanging on the physical. Like I said, God is concerned with your spiritual well-being first. God wants you to be happy and comfortable, but his first concern is your soul.

Say you had...10 children. You plan to give your wealth to all of the children equally. But your nine youngest children are terrible children, they don't listen, they don't obey and they break every rule you lay down. So you have decided to give everything you have to the oldest child who is responsible and loving. Then your oldest child stops obeying you, won't listen, abuses you verbally, stays out all night, etc. So you decide to not give any inheritance to any of your children.

That's the situation. Your physical body is very temporary. If you bought a cheap kite for your kid and then it got caught in a tree...how long would you mourn for it? Wouldn't your kids life be more important than the kite? Would you risk your childs life to save the kite? God is concerned about your soul first and your happiness and wellbeing second.

ArtGurl, try to keep in mind that the Bible has 774,746 words. You are asking questions about huge and challenging subjects. I would love to have this conversation with you, but maybe we should make another thread.

'ArtGurl', 'creativesoul', 'adj4u',

In reading your posts in what I feel is a trying thread, I must salute your sense of honor, dignity, and integrity.

I will humbly admit, I have a hard conceive how can summon the virtue and wisdom to remain crisp and fair throughout the exchange.

I learn tremendously, and I mean that, from your honesty, patience, compassion, tolerance, imagination, and yet your resolve, resilience, straithforwardness and diplomacy.

Thank you for your generosity you three!!! You are doing a great service to your respective nations!!!

Sincerely.

Spider...my good man...I would not attack you...it is quite obvious that our definitions of "attack" also differ...

Your contradictions all lie within your contextual reasoning... need I say more?

Sorry,

Paragraph 2, take 2 :

"... I will humbly admit, I have a hard time conceiving how one can summon the virtues, and wisdom such as you three do, to remain crisp and fair throughout the exchange..."

Thank you for your indulgence.

OK guys and gals... this could take a while if it gets heated!!!!

Not my gal.

My goal is clarity and unity, kapeesh?

Exodus 20.3 says, ' no other 'gods' before me.

430- elohiym....angels, fallen or othwerwise. ( no distinction is made in scripture when the Lord chastizes THEIR behavior.

Exodus 20.5 ....: for I the Lord thy God (el...supreme deity) am a jealous (angry... from the root, zealous) God (410...el..supreme deity) , visiting the iniquity....

OK, now!! follow mme here. The context is 'other gods' acting as God in counterfeit deceit. God's anger and jealousy is towards the 'other gods'. Not towards man. The reminder is in the larger context of the law... specifically the ten commandments.

The only other places this word for jealous is used is in Deuteronomy 4:24,5:9, and 6:15.(all old testament law)

Deut.4:24 is in context as admonishing the serving of angels as a proxy God, and echoes Ex. 20:3,5.
Deut. 5:9 same context... same admonision.
Deut.6:14,15. SAME AS ABOVE!!!!!

Now then. A reminder!!! The context is the Lord's anger towards angels in delusion, not man. But He is warning man because He loves us and has a higher purpose for us. (this is the point of spiritual warfare and the victory is in Christs'work at the cross... for all!!! not just those that believe, but all of mankind. PERIOD!!!!)

There exists other scriptured in the Old Testament that use the word 'jealous'. A total of 13. None of these are the same word. The predominate other 'jealous' is7065 from Strong's Concordance...qana, which can be envy as well. But not ANGER!!!!
Nubers 5:14. jealousy over a wife.
I Kings 19:10,14. ....I have been very jealous for the Lord.
Very curious here is that these are the words of ELIJAH the prophet exclaiming his own zeal towards the Lord. Nothing infers anger or righteous indignation!!!!


Spider, I too am self taught but been led by the Holy Spirit for many many years in my studies and have served the Lord in many different ways, positions, offices etc and without renumeration. That's the deal...Never did, and never will, because none of what I've learned has come from my intellect apart from the Lord. What I'm sharing here has been shared elsewhere as the Lord has led. Wha I'm doing here is to help my new friends find common ground to build friendships on.

I see many good gifts in all in this discussion and hope I can add some needed light and break the ice as having come into this discussion late.

Hell is not for man, but for angels!!! Please try to see this!

The provision Christ made at the cross frees all of us, no matter our standing in Him or HIS CHURCH ( not man's churches, but the Lord's church which is people called by His name as I am.) Heaven is a big place with all peoples from tthe world and time immemorial there worshipping God in spirit and truth.

Please, do not trip over my words. The Bible is clear in this regard with the story Jesus tol of people that don't know him personally but are in nonetheless, because of their works towards His Chosen Ones that have the anointing and serve His purposes as He sees fit. We that possess such extreme unction from the Lord are very much warred against by spiritual wickedness and must not engage too much in this world, but there are those that unknowingly help us make ends meet and have extreme favor with the Lord for such things known and unknown.

The prayers of the saints float a lot of boats!!!

Hi Voil


Thank you for the response Spider. I understand that I am asking big questions.

And I understand that I stuck on the physical but I did that for a reason ... for it to make any sense to me that God could have human emotions like anger I have to think of it in physical context. It means God must be separate from me and it means that God must be able to experience as a human ...

It makes even less sense to me from a spiritual perspective. From a spiritual perspective I have no emotions either so I cannot imagine a God as such. And when I take off my earth suit and go home ... I rejoin God in the melting pot of creation so to speak ... I do not remain separate. I no longer feel emotion, cast judgment etc... I will just 'be'...back as part of the whole without this illusion of separate.

I am trying to understand this God that has anger and judgment and I just can't...

I understand the notions as you have laid them out and I appreciate the time and care you have taken in doing so. The notion of an angry, jealous, judgmental and vengeful God, however, is so outside my personal experience that I cannot truly fathom it.

Thank you for the dialogue.

creativesoul,

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Your contradictions all lie within your contextual reasoning... need I say more?
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If you are an upstanding person, you will tell me what contradictions you see in my posts. I have asked that you do just that. If you can't offer the contradictions, that I am sure you will apologize for suggesting that I contradicted myself.