Spidercmb,

I fully respect yours or anyone else's right to religious beliefs with respect to 'past life', as well as the 'after life'. Those domains are entirely left to the personnal interpretation of each individual.

As for the present, it is a very different matter.

One is no longer 'alone' with one's interpretations. One must enter into an inescapable DIALOGUE between interpretations.

On the one hand, personnal interpretations are the only 'raw material' as it were, that will give one 'HIS' reality, one moment at a time. On the other hand, this unidimensional reality MUST coexist with other unidimensional realities. The only exceptions tho this inescapable rule, would apply to those suffering from mental disorders, where a disconnect from mutuality occurs.

In the otherwise 'normal' social space, and in this brutal 'NOW' dimension, where one's interpretations 'collide' or 'flow' with interpretations of others, THE MANNER IN WHICH ONE CHOSES TO INTERRACT WITH OTHERS, is the only factor which ultimately determines the very nature of the experience one has with others. One's soul and heart pre-dispositions, and intentions will give one's reality.

In that light 'spider', it is totally neurotic for you to play the role of this persecuted victim. It is profoundly hypocritical, disgustingly fake, and only depicts you as this desperate and obsessive 'personna'. Not to mention that it is a grave insult to all REAL victims.

I you have this insight, that the way others treat is not up to your expectations, use the insight as a useful signal (from God if you wish) for you to self-inspect, and make amends to the manner in which YOU inetrract with others, and not so much how others interract with you ! Others, are simply 'bouncing off' your reality, as it were. If you don't like that reality, there is nothing others can do to alter the fact that it is YOUR REALITY TO ACCEPT OR ALTER.

If you are not willing to do this simple and essential exercise, then please have the honesty and decency to at least refrain from blaming others for your own shortcomings.

Spider wrote: "I am a sinner, but I will be in heaven. Have I told anyone in these forums that they won't go to heaven? NO."

Spider do you know what a Pharisee is and how they act?

Voile: I so respect your knowledge, sir... so respect it


One's soul and heart pre-dispositions, and intentions will give one's reality.


One believes what one creates, and one creates what one believes...

Spider wrote: "Homosexuality is a sin. PERIOD. Only sinners go to heaven. PERIOD."

Your mother told you that if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything. Why don't you practice one of the ten comandments and honor your mother's wisdom?

There is no such thing as a Pharisee. Without a temple, there is no need for Pharisees. But if you are trying to compare what I said to the Pharisees of Jesus' time, you are way off. They believed they were sinless, I do not. They believed that they were better than everyone else, I do not.

spider:

I, sir... extend an olive branch... no hard feelings...




Friendly advice... you said:

" They believed that they were better than everyone else, I do not."


If one allows the listener to determine the speaker's intent, your message may just be getting lost...

I suspect that Fitness is merely allowing you to "see" what he sees when he looks at you... showing you... to you... in a way

ABRA!!!!!

Is this Abracadabra 1:1-5. ?

I can't help but giggle at the additional conundrum.

I assure you.... I'm guilty of worse!!!


But it is a humorouus observation that I can't hope to contain.

Your humor appeals to me on so many levels!!!

I'm in complete agreement with your observation, Creative soul, and strive to be so found representing, even though I may at times miss the mark!!

Pharisees carried themselves as though they were the only ones with the truth.

That theirs, was THE ONLY WAY to be seen as virtuous.

They lived in a world and reality of 'us good', and 'them unworthy'. An adverserial reality. A barbaric and primitive mentality.

They nurtured a world of 'seperates', as opposed to 'love your neighbor as you love yourself', free of any form or shape of sophisms or personnal conditions.

IMO, spider, just as he did the Pharisees, Jesus would have forgiven you also, for you really don't seem to know what your are doing, nor do appear to realize how you are 'being'.

Voila,

You are and remain an intelligent, thoughtful and entirely incredible wonder to behold.

I genuinely applaud your comments and attach their brilliance to my respect for you as a man and fellow adventurer.

BRAVO!!!!!

SPIDER,

Not one piece of this thread and its breaths of life and observations of life's wonderments is possible without your deliberate involvement.

Please take solice in that. You are a rightful participant upon the subject matter being discussed and the collective revelations include and depend on your input to have revealed such care and scrutiny by all.

Much is learned and appreciated by all.

I would hope that you can observe these things quite objectively and learn as well!

With my utmost respect for you,

creativesoul said...


I can understand that, but it's rare for anyone here to attempt to get to know me. I think it would be unusual for anyone to even attempt to see things from my perspective. So many people here can speak freely of their religious beliefs, but if I do so I am attacked. Homosexuality is a sin, that is my belief and that is what the Bible teaches. That doesn't mean I hate homosexuals, I WAS ONE. And even if I hadn't been, if you have broken one commandment, you have broken them all. When I hear about a murderer or a rapist, my heart goes out to them. You should have seen my families faces when they were talking about some pederast on TV and how much they hate him and I explained that the guy is enslaved to sin, he had no choice and that I feel sorry for him. This coming from a victim of molestation. I have forgiven my attacker and now I only hope that he has broken away from his sins. We should feel pity for those people who have been driven by sin to commit terrible crimes. And we should be grateful that we aren't in their shoes. And for every other sin that isn't also a crime, I pity the person and am thankful that I am not in their position. Sin is spiritual slavery, pure and simple. I was a slave and still am at times. I have no desire to judge, I am simply here to offer a Biblically sound perspective on the subjects that are discussed. It's simple, if Abra and Redy don't want to hear me say that Homosexuality is a sin, then don't read my posts and/or don't start any threads about Homosexuality.

Seriously, look around. I help TLW with quoting and he thanks me. I try to help Voil and he insults me and LadyValkyrie37 insults me and talks about how much she hates people like me. I can't win here. I get beaten up over any post I make. In current events, I simply stated my opinion that it's wrong for Hilliary Clinton to cuss out her bodyguards and was attacked by Voil for my post. Nothing I say is taken as the truth. I have been told dozens, if not hundreds, of times that I am simply pretending to be a Christian; that I am wearing a mask. How many have ever noticed how I am treated, rather than focusing on my response? Go back to September of last year and see that I was attacked when I made my first post and it hasn't improved. "This isn't a Bible quoting competition, think for yourself or don't post at all"...first response anyone made to one of my posts. I'm supposed to worry about how you guys see me, but I think that nothing I do, short of changing my beliefs, will improve how I'm treated.

wouldee:

Well said...

We all have value...

spider:

Thank you for entrusting in me... truly... I can only hope that my perspective and truth can help you...


As I have come to know...



We all have our own "truthes"... that which lives within us... these "acceptances" guide not only our thoughts, but also our actions. Therefore our actions and words "paint" our person for the rest of the world to "see"... Know your "truthes"... and consciously adjust them according to their merit... For me, it has been a matter of acknowledgment and desire for "good" change... Which I believe you may share...


Unresolved disturbance within can often result in disturbing those around one... in some form or another...


We all have our own "buttons"... which can be pushed... Truly seeking out the source of that which continues to disturb us can seem a daunting task... it is not, however, impossible... If one can recognize what "buttons" exist, then the possibility to "de-activate" that "button" also exists...



Example:

I have recently believed that someone had less than desirable intentions accompanied by an intentionally dishonest dialogue... THAT was a button for me... The situation made me fully aware that dishonesty in dialogue in which I was partaking, bothered me... hence, the "button" was exposed... my disturbances within signalled this button's existence....

However, my careful examination and acceptance of my own contribution(s) in creating the situation did several things...

Not the least of which was to accept my own shortcomings as being a part of the issue... I had a contribution which could have been better...

I find that when I am too quick to judge... I am judging... And judging by it's very nature, makes it personal...

THAT broke my own rules and I know better... Say what you mean and mean what you say - make your words impeccable... Take nothing personally... do not assume ANYTHING... Always do your best...

Had I not broken my own set of rules, the problem would have been one-sided... therefore not "my" problem...

And now I am aware that dishonesty still "lives" in me... not as a result of practice, necessarily... moreover, a result of suffering it's ill effects previously in my life... at the hands of another in whom I placed a tremendous amount of trust...

And the situation in the example reminded me of it by subconsciously reactivating that button... which I had exposed...by breaking my own rules...


The behaviour changes in me as a result of that button being pushed only confirmed to me that I HAD broken my own rules...

I recognized that I was not blameless... intentions were good... none-the-less... I accept my own responsibility in the matter...


We cannot control what another does... All we can control is our actions and/or reactions... Let us do so for the good of all...

With all due respect Spider it sounds like you posted some sort of Bible verse (out of context as they all must be) to make a point concerning the topic people were discussing.

That very kind of “Holier than thou” type of non-contextual posting of scripture is precisely what people mean when they talk about shoving a religion in their face.

I don’t think it was realistic of you to take a comment like "This isn't a Bible quoting competition, think for yourself or don't post at all", as a personal attack.

People are simply trying to tell you that on public forums we prefer to SHARE our OWN thoughts about things. If we want to read the Bible we know where we can get one.

Yet, even though they tried to point this out to you in your very first post you still haven’t stopped quoting Bible scripture in the forums to this very day!

You take a constructive comment as a personal insult, and then continue to ignore it’s intent for the rest of your days.

This is what Voil, myself, and others are trying to get you to see. No one expects you to change your beliefs, nor even asks you to. All they are trying to convey to you is to back off this ‘holier than thou’ approach of continually quoting Bible verses and then giving your own person interpretations of them as though you are speaking for God himself.

If you have a view on a topic post it as such and quit trying to act like you are the spokesperson for God.

I have nothing against you personally, as you point out, I don’t even know you personally, you might be a really great guy when you aren’t Bible Thumping, but as long as you continue to act as though you have been personally chosen to hold the only correct interpretation of the word of God then you will continually be attacked.

This is one huge problem I have with religious doctrines that claim to be the ‘word of God’. People mistakenly use this as a license to claim that their interpretations of the doctrine ARE ‘the word of God’.

It just doesn’t work that way.

And THIS is what people are trying to get you to SEE.

It’s nothing personal Spider.

You just need to climb down off the horse named, “I speak for God”.

You don’t need to change your beliefs.

Unless, of course, you really do believe that you speak for God. Then maybe changing your beliefs would be a good thing.

Hmmmm... you get a kick out of trying to push Spiders button's,
eH?

I'm not going to claim I know exactly what Jesus is going to say... but it might go something lie this:

Well... I gave you the ability to read, and made sure the bible is, and always will be the most accessable book in history. Had you read it yourself (instead of taking the frog's word for it), you would have noticed I mentioned the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth", and that "The Father gives the Holy Spirit to all who ask" - so what is your complaint again?



I've been trying to post this for months!



He doesn't expect you to believe it unquestionably, but with wisdom and reason. Which is why...



However diengenuous you meant this to be - you yourself are a "former believer" - so therefore the response is an easy one. Ask for the Holy Spirit to lead you into the truth, and it will matter not which verson you pick up. If there are falsehoods, you'll know it - disgaurd it, and get another. Or better yet, request the Holy Spirit to guide you to the version he wishes you to read. However - when the time comes to meet the author and you stand before him telling him you know nothing about Him because you couldn't decide which book to read - what do you say then? If you had a student who came to your class at the final and said "Gee, I didn't know what book to study because I didn't like the one you wanted me to read" - would you give him an "A" because he was a nice kid?

{quote]
Seriously, Eljay, as you well know, I have extreme problems taking the idea seriously that the creator of this vast universe would be so lame as to create a situation that is so highly contorted and questionable, and then expect people to live their lives based on this vague outdated confusion.


I know that. But it's so much fun going back and forth on this with you. I'm sure we are highly entertaining to the masses on JSH. Over the past few month's you've certainly given me reason to search for evidence of why I believe what I believe. It's been stimulating and challenging. I suppose my only regret is that we may not have the chance to meet face to face and discuss these matters over a coffee (or drink of choice) where I'm sure we'd share a laugh or two.



Ah... but He doesn't require you muster this faith up for yourself. All you need do is be willing to accept it with a mind towards understanding, and He provides and strengthens one's faith. If there is a willingness to understand the bible - God provides the means. But if one prefers to view it through filters that find it rediculous - He too, grants that request. He's not going to overtake anyone's mental reasoning capacity and force them to adhere to His wishes. He has left that choice to us. And once made, He seems to send us what we need to reinforce it. Or - better said - allows the natural occurance of investigation to run it's course.

SPIDER !!!!!!

I get a better picture now.

Most in this life do not know where the edge of the cliff is that cannot be repented of.

Among the many representations Christians present in persona, some may be viewed as virgin in their experiences. Their perspective of the EDGE is quite conservative, wouldn't you agree.?

Among the soldiers in the field, in defence of the gospel and its personally available richness, it could be deduced that the soldier with a reckless abandon in youth may possess and present quite a different view of the EDGE of the cliff, so to speak.

The view of the EDGE of the cliff holds more divisive definity within Christian circles than without.

Could we agree on that possibility?

Having said that, I would also put forth that many a soul has passed from the opportunities to investigate the disposition of their own souls fully, prior to their untimely departure from the confines of the flesh, only to find themselves without excuse or recourse in their immortal state and potentially harmful disposition of their immortality in judgement subsequent to their exit from their field of choices and dreams.

I, too, bear responsibility and complicity in many earlier demises of my acquaintances, friends and accomplices as a purveyor of mind altering and recreational enhancements found to be unacceptable to a civil society that I am a member of, and as a man that recognizes now that I bear responsibility for presenting temptations to others to succumb to even in my ignorance. I assure you that the cognzance I now have of my errors was not present when the Holy Spirit entered me. But rather subsequent to that event, and I would otherwise never, and I repeat, never recognized that for myself!!!!

That I escaped the same untimely demise as well, and have come to a different personal reality and assurance of immortal disposition for my soul, it in no way relieves me of great sorrow for my contributions and am defenseless to justify their affect.

Where the cliff and its irretrievable edge is, presents an unpalletable view of God's grace and mercy to VIRGIN CHRISTIANS.

It , however , also affords me a more liberal understanding and perspective of The grace and mercy of God directed at those of us remaining amoung the living in the community of man.

My own warfare over the freedom and liberty of my neighbors is greatly enhanced with the will of an inexhaustible and unrelenting strength and resolve of an incredibly motivated warrior.

I remain and represent a controversial example of man.

I enjoy few peers.

I am fiercely resisted and abhorred by many.

I am greatly misunderstood because of my usually obstinate unwillingness to be less than private about my personal life so as not to distract any from my message and divert attention away from my intended communicable desires for all to embrace.

I cannot whine!!!!

I deserve HELL!!!!!

I know the DEVIL and his wiles and whiny loneliness!!!!!

I also know the LORD and greatly reverence His Great Power and His Impenetrably Supreme Command of SPIRITS!!!

I am more in awe of His restraint towards US!!!!

In closing, dear Spider, I would like to extend an invitation to you to relax and be at peace with others as you share the depths of the richness found in your soul, and suggest that you rejoice in the fact that you are neither ignored nor taken lightly by anyone, from what I can discern!!

We are all on an equally challenging quest.

Can that be assumed to be so?

Although everyone has a conscience - it doesn't mean that one necessarily follows it. It can be shown that there are a number of people who have shown by their actions that they "have no conscience". Charles Manson, Bundy, Gates, come to mind. The explination for this - biblically - is that they have "seared their conscience as with a hot poker" through willfull disobedience to it, and are given over to their lustful desires. Therefore remdering their conscience "innoperable" when discerning right from wrong.

Eljay:

I would completely agree with the example that you have given...

What I would question though, would be an example a little more outside of that explanation...

We are very aware of the sexual abuses in the world... and the resulting damages displayed within some of those who were abused...

In some cases, there have been extreme behaviours, which for all intents and purposes, give those abused people the "control" of the sexual side of their life...

For when a young woman is continually and repeatedly molested by someone who she had absolute trust in, it could very well leave her feeling as though she had no control during this time of her life. Her only means of control would be forgetting as much as she could... disassociation... complete and ongoing...

The example of sexual intercourse forcefully given to her against her will, can leave her with a multitude of mental issues... The well practiced means of survival could later serve to allow her "acceptance" of being ridiculously promiscuous, merely by giving the control "back" to her... She says who...when...where...why...how... All completely unknown to herself... because she has no conscience... it was taken from her, in her youth... complete and ongoing...


I have come to know a person just like this... she will not allow herself to have those "doors" re-opened... And believe me... she has no conscience about THAT... She eats, wipes her mouth, and says "I've done nothing wrong!"... And believes it.

Spirit is impersonnal, and works in strange and unexpected ways to be sure!!!

It is present, and at work through this page right now.

Simply need to chose it so.

This is sort of a prayer...