ArtGurl,

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The notion of an angry, jealous, judgmental and vengeful God, however, is so outside my personal experience that I cannot truly fathom it.
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Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in a God of laws.

Angry
If a God were to create laws, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that said God would become angry if His laws were broken?

Judgemental
If that God had laws, he would have to judge those who broke his laws, wouldn't he?

Vengeful
If someone broke those laws and didn't regret doing so, wouldn't that God be right in delivering punishment?

Jealous
If someone pledged their entire life to serving God, wouldn't God have a right to become angry if they broke that pledge? Shouldn't God be angry if someone lies to him?

Adding the understanding that God is a God of laws, clears up all of your questions. In a way, God is a parent. In that regard, it's appropriate for God to have laws and require that we obey them. It is also appropriate that God punish those who unrepentedly breaks God's laws. It's terrifying to think of God being a God of laws, because I know I have broken them all plenty of times. But it's comforting to know that so little is required of us to receive God's mercy.

Spider, buddy!!!!

The law is dead! Bury it!! we're in grace, by faith, and not of our own works.

The Law was there to show that only the Messiah could fulfil it, and the Messiah said it has to go!!!

How do you wanna play it?? You'll never make it trying to live up to the Law.

Live to God by faith and love everybody.

Freely give.

And, oh, by the way!!! The only thing we can give the Lord in return for His gift is thanksgiving!!!!

You think about that. We're not debtors to angst, but Children of Love in TRUTH!!!

wouldee...

I do not believe that I have heard that interpretation prior to now... interesting, but if you would allow me, I am still working on understanding this picture that spider has been painting...

Viole...Thank you...

spider...

It goes against my grain to try and make an attempt to explain perceived contradictions in such a way that would have you to be cast in a negative light... My inabiliy to reason with your examples is apparent, as is yours with mine. I and others here have made an honest attempt at understanding examples that you have given for your own contextual agreements which you hold within yourself regarding the scripture that I questioned.

I feel that Sherrie drew a near perfect parallel with your expressed understandings of those aforementioned verses... only she used her own analogy, with human traits and characteristics. To which you had said...



ArtGurl,

Let me try an analogy, because you are hanging on the physical. Like I said, God is concerned with your spiritual well-being first. God wants you to be happy and comfortable, but his first concern is your soul.



I believe, spider, that it was you who initially hung your interpretations on the physical... and Sherrie was merely trying to assimilate with your set standard of reason... the physical... which you had already made an example using physiological principles several times...


I also am quite certain that should you choose to leave out these human examples for "God's actions" you would be left with nothing to back up what you say...


With all due respect and love for fellow human, Spider, I witnessed you setting the standards for reason at least two different times in this thread by using human analogies with human traits, feelings, and tendencies... only to dismiss the validity of very same kind because of these traits in examples that were mere extrapolations of your very own...

Need I say more?

wouldee,

I know that Christians are under grace, but are non-Christians under grace? I wasn't talking about Christians, I clearly expressed my thankfulness that I have received God's mercy and am not subject to his laws. So I guess you must have read my post quickly and not noticed that.

Wouldee,

PLEASE STICK AROUND!!!

GREATLY NEEDED BREATH OF FRESH AIR.

I don't go by the bible as you do wouldee, but I sure respect that brother of mine whom has found his own freeing expression through it. In that alone, that book I say, is serving a divine purpose!!!

Salut 'wouldee' !

Yes wouldee...I agree completely with Viole...please stick around!!

creativesoul,

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With all due respect and love for fellow human, Spider, I witnessed you setting the standards for reason at least two different times in this thread by using human analogies with human traits, feelings, and tendencies... only to dismiss the validity of very same kind because of these traits in examples that were mere extrapolations of your very own...
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That's not a contradiction in the least. My point is that ArtGurl was focused on the physical wounds which were received by the Israelites. God is more concerned about their spiritual wellbeing. Every human will die a physical death, but we don't have to die a spiritual death. God, by allowing Israel to be taken into slavery, was able to save their souls. The Isrealites only saught God when they were suffering. When things were good, they had no desire for God. This is what I'm talking about when I say you have to read the whole Bible in context. If you read judges, it's "Israel falls away", "Israel becomes slaves", "Israel calls upon God", "God sends a liberator", repeat ad nauseum. When the weather was great, the food plentiful, enemies were easily defeated, they took God for granted and created idols to worship out of their boredom.

Does her example make sense to you spider?

creativesoul,

Yes, it does. But what I am trying to get across is that her point is off the mark. She is first of all viewing God as doing this flippantly, he didn't. The scriptures are clear on that, God didn't want to remove his protection. As I pointed out earlier, God's blessings remained even after Israel had fallen away from him, because of his hope that they would come back to Him. Secondly, she presents it as a physical punishment without looking at what the result was. God didn't hope that they would come to him, he knew they would. The same events had been repeated throughout Exodus, Deuteronomy and Judges. God knew that suffering would make them repent, but he wanted to avoid it. There is the old saying "There is no such thing as an athiest in a fox hole". The truth of that is that adversity brings people to God. God wanted them to come to him willingly and without any struggle, but in the end, their souls were more important than their freedom or suffering.

Spider said:

As I pointed out earlier, God's blessings remained even after Israel had fallen away from him, because of his hope that they would come back to Him. Secondly, she presents it as a physical punishment without looking at what the result was. God didn't hope that they would come to him, he knew they would.


Re-read that very carefully...as many times as it takes to see the self-contradiction... cut and pasted from your last post.

And you completely missed her point spider...honestly

creativesoul,

I'm really not into playing games, since you refuse to directly point out what you believe are contradictions, let's drop the subject. As a personal favor to me, please don't mention any "contradictions" you find in my posts, unless you are willing to actually state what you believe the contradiction to be.

To Spider.

All are under grace, since the cross.

Not all are abandoned. Some abandon themselves.

Grace is the present dispensation, and God speaks freely to all mankind as seen fit by God, not man.

Not all will listen.
Not all will answer.
But He does send us to the cross for friendship and fellowship.

Nevertheless, the relationship exists.

The greatest difference is in how some know how to stand on the promises of God,and others only observe the cause and effect of the Golden Rule in their own lives.

I much admire the intelligence of some I've met over the years that have an innate sense of righteousness and yet profess to have no fellowship with God.

My experience in the Lord has brought me to an astounding awareness of being that requires much accession on my part when purposing my will to my personal benefit. My closeness with the Lord began without needs and continues as such ever more carefully now that I'm known and know.

This one profound transmutation within my spirit occurs in others that know the Lord intimately as well and I am of the conviction that this same attribute is by design from the Lord.

But by no means do I infer that it is a hallmark of grace, but rather evidence of the Holy Spirit conforming me into His intended likeness.

Salvation and redemption already exists present to all and the dispensation of God's grace is evident in the present world if you choose to see it. His hand is on all that is said and done by all. The Golden Rule bears fruit to all that apply it, regardless of position.

I'm sure you've been taught about position, scripturally.

The Church of Jesus Christ is not the whole of Heaven, but rather the Household of the Lord, until all is fulfilled.

But that point in time has yet to come to pass. As you know, not every knee is bent and not every tongue confessed that He is Lord. Yet, He is Lord.

He is not mocked, nor can any of us mock Him.

He is what He is... and it is what it is!!

As you are aware. His name is " I am That I Am"

wouldee,

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All are under grace, since the cross.
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I strongly disagree with this position. This position is destructive, as there is absolutely no reason to be saved if this is true. Can you quote a scripture that suggests this?

Who is playing games spider?

Your examples are inherently troublesome in their contextual reasoning...

Let me be a little more specific... I am trying to understand your perceptions, so I am carefully absorbing what you say and how you say it, all the while with context in mind...trying to look at the vision of God that you paint...

It is hard to give credibility to such statements as such:


...because of HIS HOPE that they would come back to Him. Secondly, she presents it as a physical punishment without looking at what the result was. God DIDN'T HOPE that they would come to him, HE KNEW they would.

There are such things throughout your explanations here spider.These are things that make your arguement more questionable than is needed... that is all I am saying... I am not at all being rude or sarcastic.... in any measure

I believe that you have the attention of many... would it not be awesome if your point were understood more clearly? Which is all I am trying to do here... You called me out... I was being nice and suggesting that you be more clear in your contextual reasoning...as it were.

creativesoul,

BEFORE PUNISHMENT
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As I pointed out earlier, God's blessings remained even after Israel had fallen away from him, because of his hope that they would come back to Him.
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AFTER PUNISHMENT
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Secondly, she presents it as a physical punishment without looking at what the result was. God didn't hope that they would come to him, he knew they would.
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God knew that they would come to Him if he punished them, but God hoped that they would come to him without having to be punished.

No contradictions.

BREAKDOWN...
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"remained even after Israel had fallen away from him"...clearly before they were punished. This statement is pointing out that God delayed their punishment.

"Secondly, she presents it as a physical punishment without looking at what the result was. God didn't hope that they would come to him, he knew they would. "...Clearly stating that God knew punishment would bring them back to him.
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I am sorry if I didn't make it clear enough, but I thought I was. As I have already told ArtGurl, this is a very complex subject. One which people study for their entire lives. If you don't understand what I say, it might not be your fault or my fault, perhaps the answer requires more knowledge of scripture to understand.

Creativesoul wrote:
“Your contradictions all lie within your contextual reasoning... need I say more?”

You don’t need to say any more for my sake, I read the same posts and this is what I got out of it,…

A God who punishes, but who doesn’t punish

A God who gets angry, but who doesn’t get angry

A God who has a need to be worshiped, but who doesn’t have a need to be worshiped.

A God who has a master plan but can’t ever seem to get anyone to go along with it.

Just sounds like one contradiction after another to me ad infinitum,…

I don’t blame Creativesoul for not wanting to delve into the that tangled mass to try to actually connect the dots for you Spider. I think his quote above was actually a polite way of saying that he had enough. Yet you took it as a personal insult.

Considering that you (Spider) were merely trying to justify a story from the Bible I think that any contradictions involve would belong to the biblical stories themselves and not be intended as a personal insult toward you.

Sometimes people are just rejecting the product and it’s really not meant to be a rejection of the salesman.

Come on spider...He either knew ahead of time...or he hoped... it cannot be both with an omniscient being... it can only be one actually... he knew...


Which WAS part of Sherrie's point...

creativesoul,

Man, omniscient is too deep a subject for me to get into today. I will give you a couple things to think about.

The definition for omniscient is a paradox, God doesn't know everything. KEEP READING. God doesn't know everything, God only knows things which are TRUE. God doesn't know FALSE things. So God doesnt' know you ate breakfast on the moon, becuase you didn't. God knows everything that is, was or will be true.

Think about this: Cain killed Abel. God knew beforehand that Cain would kill Abel, right? But what would have happened if God had killed Cain one day before Cain killed Abel? Cain would never have killed Abel and God would have punished Cain for something Cain never did. That is a paradox in two ways.

1) God couldn't know that Cain was going to kill Abel if Cain was never going to get the chance to kill Abel.
2) God couldn't punish someone for a sin they never commited, that wouldn't be just.

God's omnisciences and omnipotence is not something that can be easily discussed. I know that what i just said probably doesn't make sense to you. But I have sat down with several Christians who all agreed that I was right on and they had never thought of the subject the way I present it. I would love to try to explain it more if you don't understand, but I can't tonight.

Perhaps another day spider...we can continue our discussions...

Good night to you my friend,

Michael Gabriel