Abracadabra,



And I'm still saying that, you are so busy looking for holes in my argument, you haven't spent any time thinking about what I have said. If you don't get the opportunity to make the choice, God can't know your choice. God knows what you will do in the future, but only because you will get a chance to do those things. Think in those terms. If you didn't live, God couldn't know what you would do. But God already knows what all your choices are going to be, because He is allowing you to make them. If God decided to kill you this moment, God couldn't know what you would have done tomorrow. You need to quit crying "Contradictions!" at every post and start thinking, because this isn't that hard of a concept.



BOTH are true. If you don't live your life, God can't know what you would do. But since you are living a life, God knows every thought you will have and every action you will take. God has already seen the end, so the history is already written. But God can't just end the world now, because if He has seen the end, then all those things must happen before the world can end. It would be paradox for God to know the future and prevent it from happening at the same time.

exactly harry.its like having sex when you only intended to kiss

I know, and I’m never courteous whether passionate or not.

It’s my weak point. What can I say?



No. To me that’s a contradiction and there’s no need for it. Pantheism offers an answer to the question that’s perfectly reasonable without any contradiction. So why would I want to drop a perfectly reasonable explanation of God in favor of a paradoxical one?

The point is Spider that you have “No Sale”, and the reason that I’m giving is because your explanations are unnecessarily contradictive and paradoxical.

You asked us to explain what we see as contradictions in your picture and I did that.

Now you’re asking me to accept that it’s NOT a contradiction and I’m afraid that I cannot humor you on that one. To me it is a blatant contradiction, and an unnecessary one, because there are more reasonable pictures of God available.

That is my conclusion. I politely and courteously reject your picture because to me it is paradoxical and inconsistent.

How is it a contradiction? How COULD God know something that was never going to happen? You are just refusing to face the fact that what I have said is perfectly logical and fits perfectly with the scriptures in the Bible. We see many times that God knows the future, but can't change it. That's because we have free will and we are going to make the mistakes we are going to make regardless of how hard God trys to lead us another direction.



Paradox is a matter of reason, not personal opinion. But you are welcome to be wrong, why change now?

cutelildevil......I will totally do that...ty for your advise.


abra wrote:

How would you like it if I went around grabbing ideas from various Christian websites and claiming that they are what YOU believe!!!

I’m sure that you would object to that because I can find Christian website that make some pretty outrageous claims!!!!

So don’t be pinning other people’s views onto me and claiming that I don’t even know what I believe.

Let’s face it Feral, you can’t argue with my points conceptually so you have gone down the path of attempting to discredit me and thus dismiss me having no merit.

Answer: Im laughing so hard I might be falling off my chair shorty. You have no merit...because you don't even know what you believe. And if anything I would just call your beliefs the same as conservationist which I also happen to be....but yu will probably come up with a whole new view on that too....wait I have to stop lauging.

Christian = God/Christ died for my salvation.......now if I pulled up the wrong definition of pathiest...well abra then b y all means set me straight.

I actually looked it up to better understand where you were coming from....and oh what is a typical Christian behavior abra? Is this the typical behavior of a panthiest. And how do you ever figure actually checking out what someones beliefs are are a pathetic low..........Also sounds a lil like you angry abra......Now now don't be angry because we each can have our belifs right......you said that.

Art gurl, thank you for that answer. I understand you better now.

And to where that took the thread....

A while back I had made an unconnected comment about iniquity. I am of the conviction that iniquity and free will have some strange bedfellows between them.

I don't see God vs. the Devil as much as I see iniquity being a bigger issue than a jealous God.

Being an angelocentric jealousy ( biblically speaking) , iniquity is a reasonable root cause for strife.

Iniquity would seem to me to be a lack of eqiuty.

A lack of equity on the part of a created angelic entity may include a void of Love.

Certainly, an angelic entity would discern Truth, apparent in the presence of its creator, but perhaps not be self aware of Love, which gives until it hurts, so to speak.

Perhaps this creature, devoid of Love, sought to emulate the Creator on an intellectual level and went into an iniquitous freefall of self willed expression.

And said, what someone dear to me once said, Move over, I got this, I don't need you anymore.....and proceeded without direction in a stumbling attempt at a coup!!!!!!


yup yup yup uh huh uh huh

C.S.

If you think in terms of "punishment" as God raining down fire and brimstone to the 3rd and 4th generation - than yes the notion of "punishment" in this way seems illogical. I take it more to mean that the later generations become "victims" of God withholding favor. I am the child of a child of an alcoholic. Believe me when I tell you that I was a "victim" of this before I was ever born. Did I do anything to deserve that? No, of course not. However, the reprecussions of my grandfather dying from his alcoholism effected the family beyond his generation.
The bible also says "it is the soul who sins who will die". That is the direct "punishment" for individual actions. The punishment from generational action is usually an effect on environmental circumstances. That's what makes sense to me. I don't feel the "wrath of God" on my grandfather's existance beyond that.

Actually, it was not God who tested Job, it was Satan. So your example is mis-representing your statement.

Well well well, aren't we overdosing on 'fundie' (give me a break 'conservatism') fallacies!!!

I see you've stopped attending your 'fundie-withdrawal' classes 'feral'. Too bad, I thought we were making progress.

Anyhow, I'm not laughing off my chair, as you would lunatically say. I find it tragic that people like yourself, are caught in such delusional 'mind prisons'.
We've lost you 'feral'. The words you post may as well be pre-recorded 'fundie' messages, there is no 'feral' to interact with, no 'feral' home.

As for the learned 'fundie' juvenile and unfounded accusations you direct at Abra...,

"... You have no merit...because you don't even know what you believe...",

... the exact same automatic 'fundie' judgment applies to you. The empty, unintelligent, strawman, 'fundie' attacks you make on others, fire right back at you, and you're not even there to realize it.

You have no merit, 'feral' making those accusations.

As for YOUR BELIEFS, if we were using the ways of the 'fundies', this sloppy and muddy 'knee-jerk' reaction to everything which doesn't agree with the 'fundie' cult line, the accusation you direct at Abra with respect to his beliefs,

"... you don't even know what you believe in.."

... applies most pertinently to you 'Feral'. And that is based on what they say on Christian websites.

While Christ died for your salvation 'feral', you are purely delusional to suggest that god 'speaks' to you, and forces you to impose his 'word for salvation' fake deal to everyone whether they like it or not.
That is in total contradiction with Christian doctrine I looked up on the web 'feral'. Of course, I looked it up only because I am genuinely interested in better undestanding you, and you beliefs 'feral'. Here are the Christian precepts you are contravening :

A. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection paid the price for all of humanity to have eternal life in heaven, without any requirement to repent of sins and receive salvation.

SO PLEASE, GIVE-UP YOUR DELUSIONAL CRUSADE. JUST AN EGOCENTRIC TRIP, SINCE ALL HUMNAITY IS SAVED ALREADY!!!

B. Belief in Jesus Christ, is not necessary for a person to go to heaven. Salvation is unconditional, granted by the grace of God to every human being.

AGAIN 'CATLADY', GIVE-UP YOUR EGO-CENTRIC DELUSIONAL CRUSADE, HELPING SAVE SOULS THAT ARE ALREADY SAVED!!! SHAKE YOURSELF UP AND SHIFT YOUR FOCUS TO THOSE IN REAL NEED.

C. It is presumed that all of humanity will have its destiny in heaven, whether they realize it or not.

AGAIN, NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR YOUR REDUNDANT RANTINGS.

D. All of humanity will go to heaven regardless of their religious affiliation, including those who believe in false religions or adopt any other form of religious persuasion, or who have no religious persuasion.

I KNOW, I KNOW!!! YOU MUST FEEL DEVASTED AND TOTALLY DISILLUSIONED AT THIS POINT. WHAT A WASTE, YOU MUST BE THINKING. BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO RECOGNIZE YOUR ERROR, AND RE-DIRECT YOUR ENERGIES 'LADYCAT'!

E. Only those who have "tasted of the fruits" of real intimacy with Christ and have "intentionally and consciously rejected" the grace of God will spend eternity separated from God.

UNFORTUNATE, BUT THAT WOULD BE FREE CHOICE! STILL NO NEED TO CRAM YOUR JUGMENTAL RETHORIC DOWN THEIR THROAT. THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH THEMSELVES AND GOD ALL ON THEIR OWN.

F. There are persons in some type of hell, but the emphasis is "to get away from the picture of an angry, intolerant God. I don't see a bitter God."

C'MON 'FERAL', FREE YOURSELF FROM THIS FALSE AND PETTY MAN-MADE FAKE GOD OF ANGER, AND INTOLERANCE. USE YOUR FREE CHOICE, AND TRUST THE CHRISTIAN GOD OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

And of course, should you wish to remain loyal to the more convenient, entirely pre-thought 'fundie' doctrine and beliefs, I for one will still respect your choice, and love you, distinct from your sins of grandeur and delusion.

Deuteronomy5:9 in the King James version of God's words uses the term, 'visiting' which in Hebrew is 'qanad'.

Qanad is defined as visit-(ing) ( with friendly or hostile intent) and by analogy, to oversee.

This is an important distinction, in and of itself.

Earlier, in Leviticus 18:25. it is written, "And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants."

Now let us suppose that "vomiteth out her inhabitants" is a metaphor of yet to be revealed principles of resurrection.

Further let us suppose the inference that a stain of something unintended has occured UPON the condition of man.

This word "visit" is altogether adjoined with the contextuality of "iniquity".

This "iniquity" is always contextualized in scripture as an angelocentric condition.

The reference is consistent in its regard to the condition of man being imposed upon and consequential in its influence as a detrimental component upon mans' responsibilities, but in no way is intended to excuse man for any lack of integrity.

Man is consistently charged with overcoming hardship, despair and lasciviousness.

A further reminder; that the vengeance of God is consistently intent on being the Creators' responsibility, while mans' concurrent responsibility is directed towards mans' own due diligence.

These are consistent throughout scripture and should not be off-handedly disregarded, declared moot, or otherwise be assumed by any to be otherwise without personal investigation of the possibility of whether or not this is a valid interpretation of the recorded historic message of God to previous generations of mankind!!!!!!!!!

VISITING THE INIQUITY is a concept of duaality.

Whereas, the insurrection of angelic entities is not compatible with the resurrection of mankinds' individual and collective soul.

This is the deepest of the clean water in scripture.

The well is deep, the water pure, and the fountain is always filling and cleansing the intrusion of filth within the water itself.

Water , is by its very observable nature, the best cleanser of all things natural, and is an excellent metaphor for truth.

Eljay:

I hold a tremendous amount of respect for you, I always try to give everyone that same amount, although I do not always succeed in those attempts... I do try... we all have our own "filters"... and faults, as a result thereof...

I place value in all of my "teachers"... no matter what the "lesson"... which, itself, is not always recognized immediately...

Because I believe that our God lives through us, I also accept the other side of that coin, which limits his "control" to the means of THROUGH that which is phsyical along with our spiritual... I believe that we are not seperate from God... He lives through each and every one of us... We "punish" ourselves and our future generations all the while "punishing" God also, as he lives through us... and although the parameters were set long ago, he does not know the outcome of our "free will"... he experiences it with us, during... not before...

I will forever be a different man, as a result of Jesus/God, and this evolution of a "book", which has came to be called our Bible...

I just do not believe that it could be the ONLY viable source to learn the "truth" of our God...

Inherently, I have problems with this notion of a God who claims to be "just", however, displays "unjust" human characteristics. This would not be so problematic if the common notion of "omniscience" did not accompany, along with this "free will"...

It just does not rest well within me, as it has been described by many, whose descriptions paint a picture of a God that I do not recognize...

Matthew 28: 19-20 The Great Commission

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing then in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

I will not respond to you voil....because there is no need.....I know.......and thats all I need........what you think or spew has no bearing on me at all......And you really never got me in the first place or would of not said I cram anything down anyones throat.....I defend By Father God, I defend His Son Jesus Christ, and I defend the word of God....The Bible......everything else means nothing to me.....But as I told abra if your going to call these things myth expect to take the rath from Christians who believe otherwise.

Honestly feral...

The great commission is one of questionable origin... widely disputed...

Thank for supporting my point 'feral'.

This particular piece of Christian dogma from Matthew 28: 19-20, on which you have based your whole life, is in perfect contravention with this other piece of Christian dogma:

'... D. All of humanity will go to heaven regardless of their religious affiliation, including those who believe in false religions or adopt any other form of religious persuasion, or who have no religious persuasion...'

Seems redundant to cram it down people's throats, as you've have distorted 'Matthew 28: 19-20' to conveniently support your delusional ranting crusade, when the true gift of Jesus and the Christian god is unconditionnal entry to 'heaven', unless the 'saved' one forcefully declines the gift.

Sort out your confusion over Christian doctrine, clean up the very convenient and 'short' personnal conclusions the 'fundies' have sold you, and like a 'miracle', you'll wake-up to the fact that your human neighbor of different persuasion, is a gift, rather than someone you must forcefully adapt to 'fundie' delusional rethoric.

By whom?

Carlton Pearson is a heretic. The doctrine he teaches is very destructive and not supported by the Bible.

As a consequence, I find that the gospel is still in the earth and the source of greatest controversy in the heart of mankind, and its' premise in text is still the most prolific source of comfort and consternation in the present, post- modern world that we enjoy finding ourselves participants in.

As an equally disturbing prerequisite, I profer the following quote from the ubiqitous (ouch) source of so much controversy....

Phillipians1: 15-18.

15. Some indeed preach the gosel even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16. The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17. But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therin do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Now let me be clear about St. Paul's words......Feral is not the contentious one in this debate, but rather the ones that do not guard against appearing as a detractor themselves, with regard to the point about the gospels unending willful life of its' own, without regard to the positions and opinions thereof.

It is, quite ironically, kept alive by all, knowingly and unknowingly....wittingly and unwittingly....in love or in any other emotion.

I understand 'feral', the detox process is not pleasant, and feelings of anger and rage are to be expected.
And don't be wooried about me, I will not take any of it personnally. I will support you through this withdrawal journey to the end. Count on me.

I know the difference the sin and the sinner, and I love th sinner in you, in spite of your sinful and unchristian ways.

God speaks to me also 'feral', and has charged me with a mission of compassion and love towards my misguided and lost fellow fundie.

Tough love is his message to me. 'Denounce the sins of fundamentalism, and save free up the imprisonned souls', she tells me, I as you say, 'i defend his word', and no amount of 'fundie' lies will make me stray from the mission he entrusted me with.

Again, I expect more invictiveness from your posts, and I won't take them personnally. I am clear it is the 'fundie' rethoric speaking through you , and not the true you.

Trust the 'detox' process.