I might add that if Jesus actually DID say this then he was in error, because he was constantly changing the ways of the Old Testament.

The Old Testament was all about justice and revenge. The New Testament (Jesus) was all about love and peace.

He was clearly teaching a whole different philosophy!

No more 'eye for an eye', but rather 'turn the other cheek' and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

This is CLEARLY DIFFERENT from the Old Testament!

And this kind of thing is clearly your problem Spider!

You quote one little verse as if it is the undisputed ‘gospel truth’, but you fail to take in the WHOLE PICTURE of what the whole story is saying!

spider:

If I had the knowledge, which I do not, of the software that this is in, I would have quoted PLENTY of debates that ARE directly questioning the origin of the great commission...

This is the best I could do... read it for yourself...

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj11c.pdf

The bible being under scruntiny is a good thing. As long as the truth of what they find comesout instead of twisting whatever to fit a certain view. The NT is only different in instead of a prophet comming to warn the world and teach them in which the Holy spirit would come on them and then leave. Now Yahweh sent his son who was born of the Holy Spirit residing inside him . he then went through all the temptation all of us go through without giving in to human frality. So then he in doing as hid father commanded as the scriptures tell us we should do. Died on a stake. He was married to Israel in the old testament. When he died he did 3 things.
1..Till death do we part happened to Israel
2.. As a perfect lamb he bore the sins of the world.
3. He paid the bride price to take on a new bride to whom after waving the wave sheaf as our High Priest before Yahweh the count to the feast of weeks (pentecost 50 days) started in which he promised to send the comforter to all who would accept his marraige proposal. The Holy Spirit now living in us and it is our duty to obey our Husband to be and not quench that spirit (mind) of Yahweh his father who will grant eternal life at the wedding feast.

The scriptures tell us to study to show yourself appoved and test the spirits whether they be of Yahweh or satan/Helel.

With this testing how do we know what to test and study?

We have to realize that the Apostles and Discipless did not have the NT when they lived. So the studying had to be the same as before the OT.

Now many letters were written to challenge,warn,uplift,and to teach piety to give to your nieghbor.

So the NT test is does it align with what the OT teaches?/
We claim to follow Yahshua and this is what he did.
So as you study ask yourself how does this fulfill ( not do away but to amplify. as looking upon a woman with lust) the LAW and the Prophets.

If it does not then figure out why. maybe a good study of the torah would be good. Remember when Yahshua comes back the Torah will be enforced. How will you help enforce it if you don't know it?

You believe in tithing. Why? It is not in the golden rule or the 10 commandments. You can not pick and choose. You also can not save anyone. It is not your job. It is Yahshua's job to convict someone to hear and follow his voice. Don't aargue with unbelievers because when you do they see your weakness and see you as a fool. Instead pray for them and bless them. When you do like sodom and gomorraha you heap coals upon thier heads..
May Yahweh of Hosts Bless The Unbeliever as he Does The Believer...Shalom...Miles

The gospels, infact the whole new testament is in agreement as to what Jesus did. You are the one whose beliefs are inconsistant. You contradict the only known source of information about Jesus' ministry, with your beliefs of what Jesus' ministry might possibly have been about.

Exactly.

This is why for me this is a very regional folklore that is focused on a particular nation of people.

Why would the creator of this vast universe play “favorites”.

This kind of human trait that man has written onto God is the very thing that causes me to reject the whole thing as nothing more than local mythology or folklore.

I believe this is a very strong case for this.

Feral has often posted the question, “Why would God allow men to write about book about him that wasn’t true?”

Well, obviously God has allowed men to write many books about him that aren’t true. The Bible would simply be one of many. It is certainly not the only book that claims to have divine origins.

Many cultures all throughout history had beliefs that were vastly different from Chrsitianity. The Mayans, the Aztecs, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Vikings, the Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, and so many many more.

So why would the Christian God (if real) not do something to correct those people’s misinterpretations of him?

Clearly this is a regional picture of God that is from the Middle East and focused squarely on Israel.

It's clearly stamped with the hallmark of regional folklore!

It's not my intent to "attack it", but simply to point out that it's NO DIFFERENT from all other folklore around the world.

You're just in denial of the teachings of Christ.

Miles: I appreciate everyone's true "thirst" for enlightenment

Eljay: I will try to answer your questions...

You said:

Though I can't disagree with your principle here, Jesus did say "I came not to change the Law - but to fullfill it". I think there is a vast difference between claiming Jesus came to "change" the Law, rather than stop the Law from being mis-interpreted for the benefit of those who were in positions of leadership within Judiasm, and demonstrating, as well as teaching those who chose to listen to him - what the true spirit of the Law was. He did not "re-write" any of it.

<<<<<<< Jesus's behaviours and words fit well together... He fulfilled those things as they should have been, not necessarily how they were believed to have been prior to his existence.>>>>>>>


You said: Again - a matter of mis-represented interpretation.


<<<<<<< Eljay, I would not mis-represent my own interpretation... or yours.>>>>>>>


You said:

But this still puts God within a time constraint. Is this what you believe? That God does not know the future? What does that say of the Prophets - or Jesus for that matter, for clearly Jesus spoke of the end times. If God doesn't know - how could He?


<<<<<<< I am not sure what you mean by "time constraint"...
I believe that God experiences in the now, as well as the then... complete understanding of all that has been... and therefore, there is some idea of what is to come... the prophets?

Honestly Eljay, which ones?

The ones whose prophecies came to pass, and therefore were left in the bible, or the ones whose did not, and therefore were deleted? Or the ones whose origins very well could have or may have been after the fact? I believe in the truth that lives within me...without question.>>>>>>>


You said:

In all sincerity - this is wonderful. I suspect we may share a similarity in experience here.


<<<<<<< Thank you. >>>>>>>

You said:

And I would sense that you are a lifelong seeker of the truth. That is why I question your conclusion on God's not knowing the choices of man's free-will. It seems to contradict a central theme of biblical truth. So I wonder more why you have reached this conclusion, as opposed to your simply having made this decision. It was something I studied out in the earlier days of my becoming a Christian

<<<<<<< It goes hand in hand with that which rests well within me... The fact that I believe that God lives through everything as it lives... or doesn't in some cases... I believe that God is everywhere, always has been, always will be... existing together... not seperate... sometimes perhaps choosing through us... me, you, Abra, spider, etc., etc. THROUGH all that is, was and will be... For him to already know my choice prior to it's being made would be to negate the validity and value of my choice... I am not a puppet...>>>>>>>


I hope this better clarifies that which lives within me....

God didn't, the people did. Read the Old Testament sometime, it will really open your eyes. For two periods of time, all the living people worshipped God. But they gradulally fell away from God. Everywhere Abraham went, the people believed in God, even when they were terrible sinners. God claimed one people and denied them the right to have other gods. God choose those people to be his forever. Their special position is that they are the only people who are punished when they worship strange gods. Now don't you feel lucky that you aren't one of God's choosen people?

Abra on the marraige in the OT. Everyone could enter the covenant. They enter through blood of circumcision and then were to keep Yahweh's laws. Now the blood is Yahshua's to accept to enter in to a new marraige.

Spider do you remember the slaughter of the kings that Abraham did? The division started with cain.. Blessings ... Miles

Spider
quote.... Now don't you feel lucky that you aren't one of God's choosen people?

Can you show me how you know Abra is not one of Yahweh's chosen people? Can you show me where it is appropiate belittle anyone in the scriptures you hold dear? Yahshua got on to the religious elite not the unbeliever.. Shalom..Miles

We don't know that Cain fell away from God. He could have repented and been reconciled with God, the Bible doesn't say. But I think you are forgetting Noah's flood. After Noah's flood, everyone on the planet worshipped God. From that point is where we have to trace the falling away from God, not Cain.

Can you not see the absurdity of this?

You are using the regional folklore to support itself.

You can’t see outside of the box that you’ve buried yourself in.



Yes, I know how the story goes, that doesn't change the fact that it's an extremely regional story relative to the rest of the civilizations living on planet earth.

Also, the very idea that God would favor a 'nation' instead of individual souls flies in the very face of the story’s own proclamations of what God is supposed to be like.

The level of inconsistency and contradictions in these stories is overwhelming.

Proverbs 29:9

If a wise man goes to court with a fool, the fool rages and scoffs, and there is no peace.

Proverbs 22:24

Do not make friends with a hot-tempered man, do not associate with one easily angered, or you may learn his ways and get yourself ensnared.

Proverbs 19:11

A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.

No, I can't show you that Abra isn't one of God's choosen people, but you clearly missed my point. What I was pointing out to Abra is that God's choosen people have lost a right that the rest of the world had: The ability to choose. The Jews who chose to stop worshipping God were punished, because of God's jealousy. Abra thought they were receiving special blessings and I was pointing out that they also had to give up some of their freedom in return for what blessings they got. It was not my intention to belittle anyone. Since Abra does not worship the God of the Bible, he should be thankful that he isn't one of God's choosen people.

Gen 4:16-17

Then Cain went out from the presence of Yahweh and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch.
NKJV

Gen 4:18
To Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael, and Mehujael begot Methushael, and Methushael begot Lamech.
NKJV


Gen 5:28-32
8 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which Yahweh has cursed." 30 After he begot Noah, Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five ( this even speaks of the ground being cursed from thier grandfather Cain) years, and had sons and daughters. 31 So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years; and he died.

32 And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
NKJV


Blessings of Shalom... Miles

Great link, but it discusses the various interpretations of the Great Commission throughout Christianitys history. No mention of "questionable origin... widely disputed... " in there. The debate is on what the great commission means to Christians, nobody is questioning it's origins and it is not disputed.

Proverbs 20:6

A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating






A quote from William E. Diehl... another widely reknowned Christian author...

"Most of us are poor listeners. Since our mind moves faster than the words to which we are listening, we are frequently preparing something to say when we should be listening....
When we are angry about something, do we carefully listen to an explanation?
The world aches for good listeners. Many doctors report that they daily see patients who have nothing physically wrong with them. They merely need someone to listen to them."

I like those verses Creativesoul.. May Yahweh Bless Your House.. Miles


Abra we will just have to agree to disagreee. Blessings Abra..Miles

spider:

Very informative sight...indeed ...although I generally prefer "hard" text...

Read a little farther down the pages... There were several examples of those people engaged in the study who directly questioned the validity and their reasons for their questioning of it.

I find it quite odd that I "hand" you exactly what you wanted... and ANYONE who follows this thread can go see what I have said... is, IN FACT, true...

The validity of the true origin of the great commission has been questioned and still is... I simply found a site which has BOTH sides of the arguement...

To which you have only chose to read one of those sides...which happened to be the first few examples...all of which supported the Christian's widely held belief....

Honestly, it does not surprise me in the least... based purely on my observations of your displayed behaviours...

By the way, just so you know, my deductive reasoning skills have been well-documented and they were found to have no "weaknesses"...

I am not amused with your pettiness...

Sound good to me!

Blessing to you too Miles.