... when it comes to personal growth & development.

Yeah, you read that right, nothing wrong with your eyes, so I'll say it again:
Women are more advanced than men when it comes to personal growth & development.

So now your feathers are ruffled, your male ego's about to explode?
I'm tempted to say “I rest my case”, but I won't. Just bear with me.
It may help to get some better understanding between men and women, as we often aren't on the same track.

Mankind is constantly changing. Unlike animals who still 'animal' the same way they did thousands of years ago, unless we've meddled with their natural habitat, then they adept. But I'm not talking about adapting and surviving, I'm talking about changing, learning, evolving.

At the moment the changes mankind is going through, happen really fast and often these changes are quite substantial as well.
Imagine the chaos if both sexes would go through such big changes simultaneously. Sometimes not feasible.
Women started to change during WWI, as many women had to keep the war industry going at home while men were away fighting. (can explain this further, but don't want to write a tome)
Especially after WWII, things started to change real fast. Women started to resist oppression, being regarded as inferior beings, we got rights, could get jobs other than being a nanny, we got sexual freedom and so on. But it didn't stop there, we kept fighting for our rights and equality. And sure the scales tipped for a while, quite normal after a long period of oppression to get too extreme for a while. Part of the learning curve.
Now the growth I'm talking about is not just about women rights, although that triggered it.
Now we've sort of reached a balance. We've gone through a tremendous growth process, while men basically held the fort.

As far as I understand, we've now gotten to the point where it's men's turn to go through a similar process of growth. These days you get to see men attending workshops, seeking advice, the meaning of life the universe and everything. Until some 6 years ago this rarely happened.
And again, this process is not solely about relationships between men & women. It far bigger than that. If you get what I mean, you'll also know that life doesn't evolve around having a relationship or not.

The problem for many women is finding a male partner that matches this growth and development.
Many men still have a lot of skeletons in their wake, don't understand the concept of inner strength, or they do understand it but don't have a clue how to achieve it.

I read quite a lot of postings from mature, wise women, and I'm not talking about age when I say “mature”.
But I hardly ever read anything from a mature man and yet I think most women are looking for a mature man. Nice predicament.

I think most women understand the point I'm trying to make here while many/most men won't.

Prove me wrong

There are some guys on here that are mature & probly on the same level as you. For me, as far as maturity level, I got to about 16 & stopped right there!
Mebbe someday I'll grow up..

Then they see a spider or a mouse and all that " advancement " goes out the window!

I don't know, my oldest sister owns 2 rats and a tarantula.

Ha ha, same as me Journeyman. What is it with us construction workers?

I originally had a paragraph in there that I didn't post, but I will now:

Many still have the need to derive their strength from knocking others (women are easy target, as are gays), can't and won't see and respect women as equals, not truly.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Larss

Its just I hear that every day on here - " Us women are better than men? " In some things you are, yes but not at everything! Oh and I gave up smoking. So cut that into a line and snort it Crystal?

No can do, it's a bit early in the year for snow


You still haven't proven me wrong.
It's not about being better. It's not a competition.

Don't want to try to prove you wrong (or right), just want to say I feel you only address one side of the issue, the female side...First off, when women began to change and expand their roles, it was not initiated by desire, it was more or less forced upon us because our men were busy giving their life's blood to protect our freedom and the freedom of other countries.....We found we enjoyed working outside the home, liked how it felt to earn money, understood we could support our families if we had to...We also liked feeling independent....We realized we were just as smart and just as capable as our men...What I see is most men struggling (and succeeding) to catch up to the changes women demanded and continue to demand...Remember, women are embracing these changes as well they should, but men have more or less been forced into, not only adapting to our evolvement, taking on traditionally female roles that lack the empowerment of traditional male roles, ie earning and controlling the money, building wealth which provides power....I understand your point, but I think your assessment that women are more advanced when it comes to personal growth and development is way wrong....This change you are so proud of actually has more to do with women racing to catch up to men....

Good thread!

Woman advance faster then men do in a linear fashion as well. If you look at the growth rate of the body boys up until the end of primary school k-7 or 8th grade are usually smaller than a lot of the girls its not till the the following years in high school then college where boys become taller broader ect. Its only natural that their maturity grows with the body. Most girls are having their periods while boys are still in "OMG girls have cooties" stage. I think its also why you see younger women finding it more acceptable to be with an older man.

Now at the same time I do not believe during the evolution of women in the century that mans evolution has stagnated. As we have had to accept these changes in rights,attitude, and all the other changes that sprung up in the last hundred years in evolution and adept our thinking to those changes as well. I forget who the philosopher was who said that we as people go through phases of learning, forgetting and relearning. Its all growth.

Where do we fall in this evolutionary stage? I can't exactly answer this from anything but a personal stand point. I haven't studied human evolution and behavior besides what I have been able to bare witness to.

I try my best to a good person and a person with a big heart and decent manners( God knows I better have good manners for as much I drill them into my sons head). I know I'm not perfect and with every new day I take a step forward to grow as a person. I want to live as a student of life and continue learning and growing everyday till the day I die. I'm single and I'm not looking at the moment. I realize I do not need a significant other. But I like to have one. Its nice to have someone to share the journey of life with and I understand sometimes along the journey our paths may lead us in different directions. But to me its still all a step on the path to enlightenment.

hi crystal,,having a great day i hope.. .!!! you are so right on...about 40 years ago i became friends with a woman much older than i...she was a transactional analysis practitioner she put me under her wing...i sat in on many group sessions with her....almost totally women....when a man set in and his buttons were pushed he would stop coming to group therapy....a lot of men now have not had healthy roll modals.....i studied gestalt,cognitive. and imago therapy...it shows up across the board.....we have a lot of work to do to ketch up.......the first thing male children need ....there feelings validated.....the first step to healthy self esteem.........

I believe we all grow in life by our experiences, circumstances in life, joys, sorrows, etc. It is up to each and every one of us to work on that growth every single day, and pay attention to our attitudes and judgments, and how we feel about them. Both sexes advance or devolve according to the work they themselves are willing to do on themselves, regardless of whether we have any type of role model. It is easier if we do have positive role models but certainly not impossible to do if we determine to do so.

Thank you both Leigh and Lionsbrew for you additions :)

I totally agree with you both, I deliberately didn't put some things in to avoid it becoming an enormous debate. Nicer to leave space for others to fill in the gaps and then talk about it.

Leigh: I deliberately choose the word "advanced". Had I gone for a more mellow, and yet more appropriate, phrasing, no one would probably have bothered to read the topic.
Premeditated

Lionsbrew: yes, men haven't been stagnant. It wouldn't be possible for women to change is men remained the same/stagnant. So logic dictates that both change in this process.
The emphasis has been on the female's change though, and I now feel this is changing or will very soon. Meaning we will 'support' whilst men go through the motions, and again change along with men's changes.

To me there is no better, superior/inferior, it is a wonderful process.

If its not about competition Crystal, them why do you want to prove you wrong? Thats setting me a challenge, which is competition between us 2. I will get back to you shortly. Just now I have to take materials out my van and put tools into it, as it nearly finishing time, ok?

Sparkyea, thanks for your input, agree with you!

Larss, there's us goofing around a bit, but on the OP I'm actually really serious.

I gotta go out myself for a couple of hours, so I'll read up on the topic when I get back :)

Good topic Crystal. I have found that too that men certainly aren't matching my growth and development. I do embrace change and I am constantly wanting to learn new things. I find with men my age that they are in that rut and won't step out of the box. I am not sure if they are stubborn or simply scared to change. I have a married friend of mine that seems amazed that I took a vacation on my own, that I did my own renos,and that I am paying off all my bills without the help of a man. He does everything for his wife as she just never learned to do anything for herself. It was a real learning curve for him to accept that women are capable of doing so much more. I know I have scared off men with my knowledge as they told me this much. I think change might be harder for men than women which might be why they don't grow.

In my opinion when a woman is climbing up the ladder of success she will go it alone,,but when a man is,the bigger chance is he wont leave the woman behind,,.

Interesting topic.....

I don't think many men think personal growth and development are necessary because they've never had to do any, and most people accept them as they are, the old "men will be men" adage. Women have had to change, grow, and evolve if they ever wanted to get anywhere. I've had countless men explain to me that they were basically louts, and they couldn't help themselves, I had to accept them as they were or leave them alone, because they weren't capable of doing any better. (Their words, not mine.)

Obviously I left them alone, because life is too short for bs, but yeah, I thought that was ridiculous, everyone is capable of doing better, if they want to, but when you're socialized to think you can get away with anything, simply because of your gender, why bother?

@ Navygirl, I agree, esp this thing about not stepping out of their box. I don't really get why some ppl don't have this desire to learn, grow etc. Life is not about standing still, life happens when you get out of your comfort zone. And that's where you find opportunities to learn and grow. Lots of fun and interesting stuff.
Also had men tell me that I scared 'em off cos I was strong etc. I remember feeling taken aback by it.
Didn't really understand why they couldn't see beyond that. It actually hurt me. Maybe a strong woman is too close for comfort to the male ego.

@ Paintedcards, exactly why it's so difficult to find a man that's different. They exist, lol, and their numbers are increasing. But in the 40+ age group, there don't seem to be enough of 'em to go around

@ Sheeii, appreciate your input, but this is not what the topic is about

It is not up to anyone to prove you wrong. It is up to you to prove yourself right.

For example, you say, "Many men still have a lot of skeletons in their wake, don't understand the concept of inner strength, or they do understand it but don't have a clue how to achieve it." You give no reason for me to believe such a claim.