yep,some Choice!
Either believe or go to Hell!

as to the Topic.

Do Christians really believe.......?

Nope!
They have been trying to convince each other that they do for Centuries!

Yeah, what kind of free will is that? Not much of one if you ask me......it's like holding a gun to your head and demanding money or you'll be shot.....you have no choice really if you wanna live though you could try to run. It's bs all the way.

eat or die

what bs huh? not a choice at all,,,

That's what I think. They don't really believe that stuff.

Yes, we all have physical bodies and these bodies will all die. The question is, do we have a unit of awareness with the integrity to survive death (a soul)?

No one really knows, they only believe.

If we do, then does that soul just melt into the universal spirit energy and loose its individuality or does it remain intact?

If we are all one, will we melt into the body of God and be absorbed, or will we maintain some sort of individuality?

Forget heaven and hell, will our souls, if we have them, survive physical death?

We all need to eat to live, that's hardly the same argument.

The bottom line though is simply this......if one is to truly have free will they MUST be able to decide something of their own accord without any fear of a consequence placed onto them. A person who has to believe in the Biblical God and Bible with it to live fully....does not have that.

Is it ok to warn a person of what MAY happen if they do one thing over another? Sure. But to tell them you will ENSURE something happens to them if they do it, is where you cross the line. This is what religion does. In one case you leave the choice to them, in the other, you effectively make it for them if they wish to survive.

It all depends on how you look at it and what you believe.


Freedom of choice #1 Come with me if you want to live...





Freedom of choice #2 Your money or your life....

(Your soul or your life in this case.)

This is the way the Christians see it. There is going to be this big war against Satan. If you choose the right side you will survive, if you don't, you won't.

That is what they believe or what they tell themselves.

Jeannie this is a misinformed last post. The cannon belief among the average Christian is that a rapture will occur and believers will be taken, non believers will be left behind (it's a series too ;p). Then starts a period of tribulation where the 7 seals of God open up and his wrath is poured out on the earth.

So it's not accurate to say non believers won't survive necessarily or that believers will because technically believers won't even be here and non believers CAN survive, at least spiritually. During tribulation many will turn to God out of fear or out of circumstances changing their mindsets. So if you're left behind, you still have a chance.

I think I need to clarify some things because most of you seem to have been judged and mistreated by the "religious" types of fire and brimstone Christians, which I in no way, shape or form associate with. The ones that tell you that you will go to hell for this and that... and that this is a sin and all that. Or that you need to live a "holy" or "Godly" life. It's all a load of crap quite frankly.

Things like premarital sex, drinking, not going to church etc and commonly criticized things by these legalistic Christians are man made rules used to control people, not actual words of God. Jesus drank alcohol. The bible never addresses premarital sex ONCE, just adultery which is a different issue. The church is a body of believers fellowshipping together so why would not going to a building affect your salvation? Simple answer, it doesn't. Jesus didn't go to a church and neither did his disciples.

You get saved by grace and grace alone. Not by what you do or how you live. Is it better to live as a good person and try to make a positive difference? OF COURSE. That's not what it takes to be saved though.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

John 10:28



It's important to remember that the bible is rife with wrong translations. At the last church I attended they had this original Roman translator and you'd be shocked at how much the meanings changed. Every single time it became less confusing and quite frankly better. It really made God look less rough and brutal to me which helped me evolve spiritually.

How about that God of the Old Testament!
If you take your Bible you need to take it in it's entirety,not just the parts that might "prove" you right!
Besides,trying to prove the Book by the Book is Circular reasoning!

I don't agree at all. The bible was made cannon by MEN, not God. Why do I need to take a book in it's entirety? You don't seem to understand what the old testament is based on your last post. It was laws written for the JEWS and instruction for God's chosen people, not gentiles or future generations of Christians. The old testament is nothing but a history book and an old, outdated covenant for the most part. As Jesus said... do not put new wine in old wineskins.

Now there are some other parts such as prophecy and Psalms/Proverbs which the current Christian should pay close attention to and learn from but when God is giving commands to or disciplining Jews in ancient times (most of old testament), that's not relevant to today. Besides Jesus came and fulfilled the law and gave a NEW covenant. The message of fire and brimstone was done and the mediator came to bring a message of love.

Besides what gave you the impression that I was trying to "prove" something Conrad. You can't "prove" anything to somebody who doesn't believe in something. Your own experiences in life will mold you and open or close your mind. Based on your posts, I think you've met some very rough Christians and that has hardened you to the idea of Christianity. I care about what happens to you but I would never force it on you or try to convince you really. The only people I would share the message of salvation with are those who want to hear it. Forcing beliefs on a non believer with a hardened heart to it has a negative effect and will push them further away.

All I'm trying to do here is shoot down common misconceptions.

one is the flesh,, which we easily 'believe' because it is tangible

and one is the soul

the ONE who created both, understand both

he made our bodies to need food, and we understand and 'believe' that

he made our souls to accept Jesus, and he understands that, but our flesh is too selfish and stubborn to accept it as simply as we accept our need for 'physical' things like food

and that's our CHOICE to believe it or not

Yes but come on, if your child did something you knew was no good for it, would you let it die just to make a point or would you save it still? It's common sense......no loving being being able to stop something from happening like that would stand idly by and let it. It's absurd.

Not to mention this God is supposedly all powerful and can do anything it wants to do, yet despite willing ALL saved fails to make it happen. Sorry that doesn't pass the smell test to me.

no,,because we choose to continue ACTING like children, doesn't mean we are

there are lots of things I stop my 6 year old from doing, that I don't interfere in with my 21 year old

most 'children' expect someone else to remove the consequences of THEIR CHOICE

adults expect to accept those consequences as part of what it means to no longer act like a child

my choice, my consequence,, like it or not,,,and ESPECIALLY if I have the good sense to have known the consequence ahead of time

its not someone elses place, even Gods, to remove it because I Wanted to go ahead and do what I Wanted to do anyway,,,

MichaelRobles

Thanks for your input. I agree that the bible was made cannon by MEN, not God and that there is no need to feel that a Christian has to take the book in it's entirety. That is common sense anyway and only the hard task masters will try to insist we must do this.

I don't think there are very many Christian denominations around that insist on this, but there are still quite a few who do.

But given what you have said, and I have heard that 'new covenant' angle from others, I wonder why the 'new covenant' Christians would need to still accept or hold on to the old testament at all.

I see no similarity to the God of the new covenant and the God of the Jews. I don't believe they are even related.

Its a new religion patched together by the Romans in an attempt to unite several cults under one roof. Its the biggest scam of history.

so if your child was DYING, you'd sit there and let them die even when you can stop them and keep them alive? Is that what you're telling me? Cause that is what your God does! Hell it's even worse, he KILLS THEM himself!! How can you advocate that?? It's one thing to warn of a consequence if you do something, it's another to BE the consequence......

And again if God is all powerful, and wills all to be saved he MUST be able to save all to fit the description. He can't be all powerful, will something to happen and then fail......period. Doesn't work and nothing you say to defend it can make it so.

I feel that if a person wants to believe in Jesus, and the message of love and compassion that's up to them, but the twisted way in which the Church concocted a story connecting him to the Judean God of the old testament, or the God of the "Jews" (which were really Judean as the term "Jew" is a new one) is very deceiving.

I think the human race is over 21 now. Its time we as humans took responsibility for our own sins and stopped entertaining the idea that someone else has to die for them.