Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: Fake Christians
Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Mon 02/13/12 01:13 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Mon 02/13/12 01:15 PM
The REAL reason people get angry at having their beliefs questioned is becuase they have built up a personal image based on those beliefs. Human memory is based in large part on idealizations not the actual detailed data. We reassemble memories based on small amounts of data as it meets generic idealization of the core concepts of the memory. Not much memory is of the memorized form, most is conceptual re-assemblies. We form conceptual, visual, and sensory impressions of what it means to be something, and we take that idealized self and hold it up as what it means to be this, or that ect. It FEELS real! The wonderful thing about holding only objective truths (or at least for the important questions) is that any questions can be refereed back to the object itself. However when the belief is based on faith then the only reference is the idealized image of self itself, it becomes personal.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 01:14 PM
the point was about BASHING others beliefs if a mother believes in prayer alone for cancer..whose business is it is someone else being asked to look after that child, or is she going to be the one doing it? if someone wanted to make this a 'christian nation', how is that any better or worse than making it a 'democratic nation',, until you have some CLUE of what their personal interpretation of the phrase means? judgmental thinking makes people feel pressured not to be able to draw upon their personal experiences but to follow 'studies' and statistics instead because we live in a nation of HUMANS we have both judgmental thinking that bullies others and twisted thinking that results in bad choices right and wrong are not a matter of what studies say or what others tell us, its a matter of how our actions affect the world EVERY freaking issue is not an issue of being right and wrong, any more than it is about being better or worse, its about peoples PERSONAL Experiences and what has worked FOR THEM that logic is every bit as detrimental to society as the 'witch hunting' philosophies referred to by non believers You seem mad. (I think its all the bolded words that make you seen angry, if you are not then ignore the last question) What interests me is that my opinion is seen as bashing, but yours is not? What is the difference? being better or worse Is a relational statement which can be assessed for accuracy. Right and wrong is no different unless you relate it to something not tangible, or to a subjective state, or if the form of the question is nonsensical. Quick hypothetical question. - A 6 year old child asks you the same exact question I ask you. Would that make you more or less angry? Why? what 'question' was asked?

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Mon 02/13/12 01:16 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Mon 02/13/12 01:16 PM
the point was about BASHING others beliefs if a mother believes in prayer alone for cancer..whose business is it is someone else being asked to look after that child, or is she going to be the one doing it? if someone wanted to make this a 'christian nation', how is that any better or worse than making it a 'democratic nation',, until you have some CLUE of what their personal interpretation of the phrase means? judgmental thinking makes people feel pressured not to be able to draw upon their personal experiences but to follow 'studies' and statistics instead because we live in a nation of HUMANS we have both judgmental thinking that bullies others and twisted thinking that results in bad choices right and wrong are not a matter of what studies say or what others tell us, its a matter of how our actions affect the world EVERY freaking issue is not an issue of being right and wrong, any more than it is about being better or worse, its about peoples PERSONAL Experiences and what has worked FOR THEM that logic is every bit as detrimental to society as the 'witch hunting' philosophies referred to by non believers You seem mad. (I think its all the bolded words that make you seen angry, if you are not then ignore the last question) What interests me is that my opinion is seen as bashing, but yours is not? What is the difference? being better or worse Is a relational statement which can be assessed for accuracy. Right and wrong is no different unless you relate it to something not tangible, or to a subjective state, or if the form of the question is nonsensical. Quick hypothetical question. - A 6 year old child asks you the same exact question I ask you. Would that make you more or less angry? Why? what 'question' was asked? Doesn't matter as long as its one that would normally make you mad coming from me. Why you believe X. I am sure you can find examples were you think I am bashing someone's belief and then just use that . . .

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Mon 02/13/12 01:18 PM Edited by Sin_and_Sorrow on Mon 02/13/12 01:18 PM
The REAL reason people get angry at having there beliefs questioned is becuase they have built up a personal image based on those beliefs. Human memory is based in large part on idealizations not the actual detailed data. We form conceptual, visual, and sensory impressions of what it means to be something, and we take that idealized self and hold it up as what it means to be this, or that ect. The wonderful thing about holding only objective truths (or at least for the important questions) is that any questions can be refereed back to the object itself. However when the belief is based on faith then the only reference is the idealized image of self itself, it becomes personal. ..thus why 'you are bashing my chit' always seems to come into play. Religion itself, no matter where its origin, is all based on Faith. ..but if you are truly firm to your belief. There is no reason to feel threatened. Because true faith, true belief; should not and can not be swayed. ..to take offense to someone questioning your belief.. Only shows that you cling to it by a tiny string. Too much pressure and it will snap. ..again, that is by appearance.. Possibly not the truth, but that is how it is perceived.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 01:19 PM
the point was about BASHING others beliefs if a mother believes in prayer alone for cancer..whose business is it is someone else being asked to look after that child, or is she going to be the one doing it? if someone wanted to make this a 'christian nation', how is that any better or worse than making it a 'democratic nation',, until you have some CLUE of what their personal interpretation of the phrase means? judgmental thinking makes people feel pressured not to be able to draw upon their personal experiences but to follow 'studies' and statistics instead because we live in a nation of HUMANS we have both judgmental thinking that bullies others and twisted thinking that results in bad choices right and wrong are not a matter of what studies say or what others tell us, its a matter of how our actions affect the world EVERY freaking issue is not an issue of being right and wrong, any more than it is about being better or worse, its about peoples PERSONAL Experiences and what has worked FOR THEM that logic is every bit as detrimental to society as the 'witch hunting' philosophies referred to by non believers You seem mad. (I think its all the bolded words that make you seen angry, if you are not then ignore the last question) What interests me is that my opinion is seen as bashing, but yours is not? What is the difference? being better or worse Is a relational statement which can be assessed for accuracy. Right and wrong is no different unless you relate it to something not tangible, or to a subjective state, or if the form of the question is nonsensical. Quick hypothetical question. - A 6 year old child asks you the same exact question I ask you. Would that make you more or less angry? Why? what 'question' was asked? Doesn't matter as long as its one that would normally make you mad coming from me. Why you believe X generally, a sentence or paragraph in all caps indicates elevated emotions on the contrary, when I am capitalizing a word or two within a posting, it is to emphasize the IMPORTANCE of the concept or word in relation to what Im posting,,, as far as questions I take a six year olds questions with more sincerity and less intent to ridicule because they have usually not had the experience to know the answer themself,,,, it would help me , in the future, for people to specify if they wish for me to discuss with them as if they are a six year old, and I will try to oblige,,

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Mon 02/13/12 01:21 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Mon 02/13/12 01:22 PM
The REAL reason people get angry at having there beliefs questioned is becuase they have built up a personal image based on those beliefs. Human memory is based in large part on idealizations not the actual detailed data. We form conceptual, visual, and sensory impressions of what it means to be something, and we take that idealized self and hold it up as what it means to be this, or that ect. The wonderful thing about holding only objective truths (or at least for the important questions) is that any questions can be refereed back to the object itself. However when the belief is based on faith then the only reference is the idealized image of self itself, it becomes personal. ..thus why 'you are bashing my chit' always seems to come into play. Religion itself, no matter where its origin, is all based on Faith. ..but if you are truly firm to your belief. There is no reason to feel threatened. Because true faith, true belief; should not and can not be swayed. ..to take offense to someone questioning your belief.. Only shows that you cling to it by a tiny string. Too much pressure and it will snap. ..again, that is by appearance.. Possibly not the truth, but that is how it is perceived. Yup, and it takes YEARS to build this structure of self image. Many times the actual effort involved is enormous, and often that is why even in the face of evidence to the contrary a belief will be held, its too much work to rebuild a self image from scratch. I take a six year olds questions with more sincerity and less intent to ridicule because they have usually not had the experience to know the answer themself,,,, I would settle for not adding motivations I have not myself made clear or you can ask, and I will honesty reply.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 01:23 PM
I think there is a difference between 'why are you bashing my chit' and 'why arent you capable of discussing like a grown up without resulting to insults and accusations?' there is alot to cover between those two extremes,,,,

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 01:23 PM
The REAL reason people get angry at having there beliefs questioned is becuase they have built up a personal image based on those beliefs. Human memory is based in large part on idealizations not the actual detailed data. We form conceptual, visual, and sensory impressions of what it means to be something, and we take that idealized self and hold it up as what it means to be this, or that ect. The wonderful thing about holding only objective truths (or at least for the important questions) is that any questions can be refereed back to the object itself. However when the belief is based on faith then the only reference is the idealized image of self itself, it becomes personal. ..thus why 'you are bashing my chit' always seems to come into play. Religion itself, no matter where its origin, is all based on Faith. ..but if you are truly firm to your belief. There is no reason to feel threatened. Because true faith, true belief; should not and can not be swayed. ..to take offense to someone questioning your belief.. Only shows that you cling to it by a tiny string. Too much pressure and it will snap. ..again, that is by appearance.. Possibly not the truth, but that is how it is perceived. Yup, and it takes YEARS to build this structure of self image. Many times the actual effort involved is enormous, and often that is why even in the face of evidence to the contrary a belief will be held, its too much work to rebuild a self image from scratch. I take a six year olds questions with more sincerity and less intent to ridicule because they have usually not had the experience to know the answer themself,,,, I would settle for not adding motivations I have not myself made clear or you can ask, and I will honesty reply. well, so would many of us 'christians'

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Mon 02/13/12 01:26 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Mon 02/13/12 01:33 PM
well, so would many of us 'christians' OHHHH I keep asking, I do not often get replies, but I keep on a asking. I think there is a difference between 'why are you bashing my chit' and 'why arent you capable of discussing like a grown up without resulting to insults and accusations?' Not really, the difference between those extremes lives in the head of the person reading the question. . . so a difference of what 4-5 inches? lol What insults you may not insult me, what insults me may not insult Ruhollah Khomeini. I can guarantee what I lack in belief would insult most of the religious, just on the fact that most religions teach them as early as possible to be insulted. Many beliefs on science I find sad, not directly insulting, but some can reach that level, it takes some pretty epic magical beliefs to reach that level. What I might find insulting is walking someone through why some bit of science is true, having them understand each and every step to the conclusions, then have magic thinking override a perfectly demonstrable fact.

singmesweet Joined Mon 07/28/08 Posts: 26661	Mon 02/13/12 01:34 PM
Why can't we all just believe what we believe?? Why must it always be a debate? Why do we find fault with others beliefs? Why must we bash others for their convictions? Who are we to judge anyone when we ain't so swift ourselves? Why is the flippin sky blue? Who really gives a F what others think of us? Ok...... I'm Done!!!!! Does anyone get my point????????? I get it,,,wish others would too OHHHH we others get it, we just dont agree. When a mother believes prayer alone will cure cancer her beliefs need to be questioned. When a legislater believes its his mission in life to save humanity by making this a "Christian nation", Its time to question those beliefs, and his decision making apparatus. I could go on forever here, magical thinking allows some amazingly twisted conclusions and only becuase we are a secular nation with laws based on objective reality do we not see the kind of witch burning or other such faith based education taking place which guides people into religious decision which are anything but moral. the point was about BASHING others beliefs if a mother believes in prayer alone for cancer..whose business is it is someone else being asked to look after that child, or is she going to be the one doing it? if someone wanted to make this a 'christian nation', how is that any better or worse than making it a 'democratic nation',, until you have some CLUE of what their personal interpretation of the phrase means? judgmental thinking makes people feel pressured not to be able to draw upon their personal experiences but to follow 'studies' and statistics instead because we live in a nation of HUMANS we have both judgmental thinking that bullies others and twisted thinking that results in bad choices right and wrong are not a matter of what studies say or what others tell us, its a matter of how our actions affect the world EVERY freaking issue is not an issue of being right and wrong, any more than it is about being better or worse, its about peoples PERSONAL Experiences and what has worked FOR THEM that logic is every bit as detrimental to society as the 'witch hunting' philosophies referred to by non believers Are you taking his saying her beliefs should be questioned as bashing? Since when did questioning beliefs become an insult? I would question someone who believed prayer cured cancer, too.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Mon 02/13/12 01:41 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Mon 02/13/12 01:43 PM
It is soooooo amazing to me that this thread is entitled, "fake Christians". Where an idealized image of a "real Christian" is placed against the backdrop of these so called fake Christians, but then an atheist comes in and questions all of the various faith based beliefs and the grounding for those beliefs and is seen as insulting, and accusatory. That to me is precious irony. I know most believers get mad when I use the term "magic thinking", I wonder if that makes them more or less mad then being called fake?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 01:42 PM
Why can't we all just believe what we believe?? Why must it always be a debate? Why do we find fault with others beliefs? Why must we bash others for their convictions? Who are we to judge anyone when we ain't so swift ourselves? Why is the flippin sky blue? Who really gives a F what others think of us? Ok...... I'm Done!!!!! Does anyone get my point????????? I get it,,,wish others would too OHHHH we others get it, we just dont agree. When a mother believes prayer alone will cure cancer her beliefs need to be questioned. When a legislater believes its his mission in life to save humanity by making this a "Christian nation", Its time to question those beliefs, and his decision making apparatus. I could go on forever here, magical thinking allows some amazingly twisted conclusions and only becuase we are a secular nation with laws based on objective reality do we not see the kind of witch burning or other such faith based education taking place which guides people into religious decision which are anything but moral. the point was about BASHING others beliefs if a mother believes in prayer alone for cancer..whose business is it is someone else being asked to look after that child, or is she going to be the one doing it? if someone wanted to make this a 'christian nation', how is that any better or worse than making it a 'democratic nation',, until you have some CLUE of what their personal interpretation of the phrase means? judgmental thinking makes people feel pressured not to be able to draw upon their personal experiences but to follow 'studies' and statistics instead because we live in a nation of HUMANS we have both judgmental thinking that bullies others and twisted thinking that results in bad choices right and wrong are not a matter of what studies say or what others tell us, its a matter of how our actions affect the world EVERY freaking issue is not an issue of being right and wrong, any more than it is about being better or worse, its about peoples PERSONAL Experiences and what has worked FOR THEM that logic is every bit as detrimental to society as the 'witch hunting' philosophies referred to by non believers Are you taking his saying her beliefs should be questioned as bashing? Since when did questioning beliefs become an insult? I would question someone who believed prayer cured cancer, too. no, Im referring to the point immediately before this dialogue when the poster asked if people could stop BASHING beliefs, and I bot it and agreed and others said they got it, but didnt agree,,,,

singmesweet Joined Mon 07/28/08 Posts: 26661	Mon 02/13/12 01:51 PM
no, Im referring to the point immediately before this dialogue when the poster asked if people could stop BASHING beliefs, and I bot it and agreed and others said they got it, but didnt agree,,,, Who was bashing?

Ghostrider2u Joined Thu 05/17/07 Posts: 6953	Mon 02/13/12 02:01 PM
My comment was based on the comments above mine. My Point was.......... Why does it ALWAYS have to become a.....Debate. I really dont care if anyone thinks I'm right or wrong in what I believe. Just Respect my right to......Believe it. As I respect you're right to believe as you do. ( If ya take notice....I never mentioned WHAT I believe) Just be nice to see people show each other some respect once in a while!!!!! Have a nice day!!!!!

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 02:01 PM
We all do just believe what we believe. We find fault with others beliefs because they are wrong. We judge people who are not as smart as we are. ..we can pretend these things are 'innocent', but they are not we are discussing beliefs and a comment is made about intelligence,, guess what the implication is? that type of phrasing is MADE for a reaction and to insult, and its more insulting to pretend people dont have the sense to realize it or the human right to speak out when someone else tries to insult them or their choices,,,

andrewzooms Joined Fri 10/26/07 Posts: 2842	Mon 02/13/12 02:02 PM
The only reason I posted this was in response to an article. Why Do Atheists Know More About Religion? "A new Pew survey is pretty much guaranteed to ruffle the feathers of the faithful. In a survey of religious knowledge, Americans did fairly poorly, displaying little knowledge of world religions. More provocatively, Americans did not even know much about their own religions. A shocking forty-five percent of Catholics incorrectly answered a question about Catholicism and Communion, for example. To make matters worse, it seems that those who scored highest on this survey were, in fact, atheists and agnostics. The next-highest scoring groups were Jews and Mormons." "People believe in what they believe for social reasons and not because they actually know anything about what they believe," concludes blogger Half Sigma.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 02:05 PM
The only reason I posted this was in response to an article. Why Do Atheists Know More About Religion? "A new Pew survey is pretty much guaranteed to ruffle the feathers of the faithful. In a survey of religious knowledge, Americans did fairly poorly, displaying little knowledge of world religions. More provocatively, Americans did not even know much about their own religions. A shocking forty-five percent of Catholics incorrectly answered a question about Catholicism and Communion, for example. To make matters worse, it seems that those who scored highest on this survey were, in fact, atheists and agnostics. The next-highest scoring groups were Jews and Mormons." "People believe in what they believe for social reasons and not because they actually know anything about what they believe," concludes blogger Half Sigma. I would add, few people know everything about everything a great debater learns the opposite side, perhaps is why those who dont believe memorize the bible more often perhaps bible believers arent interested in debating semantics and scripture out of context as often as non believers ,,, just other possibilities,,,

andrewzooms Joined Fri 10/26/07 Posts: 2842	Mon 02/13/12 02:17 PM
I think it is a good thing to know about all the worlds major religions. Since only 33 percent of the world is Christian. 1.62 billion people are Muslim. 940 million Hindus in the world. Buddhists 350 million. Etc

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 02/13/12 02:22 PM
I think it is a good thing to know about all the worlds major religions. Since only 33 percent of the world is Christian. 1.62 billion people are Muslim. 940 million Hindus in the world. Buddhists 350 million. Etc I concur. Having diverse experience and knowledge helps us find our common ground and common humanity.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Mon 02/13/12 02:23 PM
The only reason I posted this was in response to an article. Why Do Atheists Know More About Religion? "A new Pew survey is pretty much guaranteed to ruffle the feathers of the faithful. In a survey of religious knowledge, Americans did fairly poorly, displaying little knowledge of world religions. More provocatively, Americans did not even know much about their own religions. A shocking forty-five percent of Catholics incorrectly answered a question about Catholicism and Communion, for example. To make matters worse, it seems that those who scored highest on this survey were, in fact, atheists and agnostics. The next-highest scoring groups were Jews and Mormons." "People believe in what they believe for social reasons and not because they actually know anything about what they believe," concludes blogger Half Sigma. Very insightful, and really quite refreshing to see a person of faith use such as a reason to ask questions. Most people do not intellectualize the reasons they believe things. Its all feelings, and "personal truth" whatever that means. I have more respect for a religious person who can answer my questions, and who has shown an ability to be honest with regard to those questions and the various answers than the ones who get upset at the questions being asked in the first place. If their belief comes back to a given source such as the bible with a given interpretation, or comes back to faith, well thats just fine, it took quite a journey for that person to back track that belief and ground it in something. Its that effort that I applaud, its the lack of effort that I cajole.