See, there you go again Cowboy,

Attempting to justify the condemnation of a person simply because they don't believe in Christianity.

This is all you ever do. You continually justify a God who condemns people for utterly PETTY REASONS.

Christianity is a train-wreck of a religion.

Judaism started out with Adam and Eve and was a story that was supposedly about morality willful disobedience.

But now Christianity has taken that religion and turned it into a religion where they justify this God to condemn anyone just for merely not believing in Christianity.

This is precisely the SCAM Cowboy.

They USED Jesus to build this SCAM.

Jesus himself, was probably a VICTIM of the whole thing.

Jesus was most likely a mortal man who taught against the immoralities of the Torah (which had already clearly gotten way out of hand as we well know). The Torah had people judging each other and stoning each other to death, and seeking revenges as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

In fact, they often took that literally and would actually cut the hands off of thieves and so forth. They were extremely brutal back then as the Crucifixion of Jesus clearly demonstrates.

Jesus taught against all those horrible immoral teaching and instead he tried to teach morals that were far more in line with the most popular forum of Buddhism at the time which was Mahayana Buddhism.

In Mahayana Buddhism the a Buddhist monk would become a Bodhisattva, and the very mission of a Bodhisattva was indeed to go around seeking disciples and teachings the masses how to obtain spiritual enlightenment and become "Born Again".

This is what Jesus did. He taught the same things that are taught in Mahayana Buddhism. He and God are One. We are all Gods. And Jesus taught us how to be BORN AGAIN into the spirit of God, which is the Buddhist Enlightenment.

Jesus rejected the immorality of the Torah.

Jesus was crucified for his views.

After he died there was much controversy over this man who taught nothing but LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and people were natually asking, "Who was this man who spoke with such authority" (Which is what we would be expect people to say about a Mahayana Buddhist Monk).

Rumors sprung up and the Scribes and Pharisees were having difficulty with this. Someone came up with the idea that Jesus might have been the messiah prophecised in the Old Testament.

The Scribes and Pharisees realized that they could use this to their advantage. And so they created the New Testament using Jesus as the son of Yahweh, and the final Sacrificial Lamb which everyone must accept in order to be cleansed of their sins and thus "SAVED".

And that was the birth of Christianity.

Even then the religious authorities had to actually ram their New Testament down the throats of the people via sword-point and threats of death to anyone who refuses to accept these rumors as the "HOLY SCRIPTURES".

All other rumors about Jesus were quickly SILENCED and destroyed. Yet even so, many of those rumors have even survived today and historians recognize that in the very early days of Christianity the greatest arguments over who Jesus was and what he was all about took place among the early "Christians" not all of whom were prepared to accept that Jesus was "The Christ".

You believe the New Testament version of these events.

I don't.

From my perspective they are themselves "ungodly" and do not even begin represent the type of behavior that I would expect from a genuinely all-wise loving intelligent God.

I don't believe that any God could be as sick and demented as the God depicted in the Torah (even Jesus himself clearly did not agree with the morality of those teachings).

And I don't believe in a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices. Or who would ask humans to condone a bloody crucifixion of an innocent man on their behalf to "pay" for their sins.

I see no wisdom in this, nor anything divine nor godly.

It a sick perverted notion, IMHO.

I see absolutely no reason to believe than any supposedly all-wise divine God would stoop that LOW.

So no, Cowboy, I don't believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh.

No way.

Don't quote things as I'm saying it when I didn't say it. I didn't say the statement of what I'm quoting now, why did you say "Cowboy wrote:" I did not say that.

Cowboy wrote:

And that is your choice. My gosh people, we're having a RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION. No one's trying to win over the other, no one's trying to change the other's beliefs. WE'RE HAVING A DISCUSSION, WE'RE SHARING OUR OWN BELIEFS.

Well, of course it's my choice.

But you keep posting in response to my posts about "Obeying God".

And you keep posting in response to my posts verses quoted directly from the New Testament, as they they are the "VOICE OF GOD".

How many years have I been telling you know that I don't believe that the New Testament can be TRUSTED to be the VOICE OF GOD?


When are you going to STOP and say,...


Ok Abra, I understand now. You have legitimate reasons to believe that the New Testament is untrustworthy and that Jesus was not the only begotten son of Yahweh.

But You NEVER STOP!

You continaully keep on implying that I am REFUSING to OBEY God by how you respond to my posts, and you KEEP on posting verses from the New Testament like as if I should believe that they represent the actual verbatim WORD of Jesus and that I should accept that as being the authority of God HIMSELF?

And you KEEP on telling me You have been told the laws by God!

No I haven't been told anything by God Cowboy.

All you keep offering are the same old untrustworthy hearsay rumors

Clearly you aren't UNDERSTANDING my position, or you'd simply acknowledge, and say to me:

Ok Abra, I understand now. You have legitimate reasons to believe that the New Testament is untrustworthy and that Jesus was not the only begotten son of Yahweh.

~~~~~

If you want to believe that the Bible is the word of God more power to you

That's your shared belief.

It is my shared belief that I see no reason to believe that the Bible has anything to do with God.

So quit telling me "YOU'VE BEEN TOLD THE LAWS OF GOD".

No, I haven't. All I've been shown is totally unbelievable and utterly absurd hearsay rumors. NOTHING MORE.

Cowboy wrote:

First off, I don't respond to YOU. I respond to the words you put. Not making a joke, not being "technical". But I'm replying to your words, not you. I'm not talking with you, I'm discussing on a community forum. A forum that is posted towards everyone, not particularly the one who originally posted. I'm not telling YOU anything, I'm again replying to the words posted. Could be you that said the certain thing that I'm replying to, could be anyone, that is moot. I'm just sharing my beliefs on the certain discussion at hand and again not replying specifically to you as you and I were talking. Not trying to convince anyone, not trying to convert anyone, not trying to change anyone's mind. Just purely expressing and sharing my own personal beliefs on the discussions at hand. This is a forum for that, a place we can all discuss our different beliefs. A place to get to know one another on a deeper level then "Hi my name is Greg".

God is not the boss of me because I have free will.

Any religious leader who tries to tell you how you should live your life is not the boss of you either.

Free will is free will. There are not strings attached.

Yes you do respond to me. I'm a real person that you are talking with.

Besides, I'm not taking it personal as Cowboy versus Abra. I realize that you feel this way about all non-Christians.

I also realize that it is indeed the religion that is causing you to judge other people to "have already been told".

That's the lie of the religion itself. The doctrine itself proclaims that anyone who refuses to believe is "Without Excuse", which itself is a bogus claim.

There are plenty of rational reasons why everyone is perfectly justified in rejecting these stories as nonsense.

1. The stories contain utterly outrageous claims.
2. The stories are inconsistent with the character traits that their God is supposed to have.
3. The stories are only an arbitrary collection of stories to being with.
4. The stories themselves do not even proclaim that they will be formed into a single cannon.
5. The stories of the New Testament are confessed by the authors to be hearsay rumors.
6. Jesus neither wrote any of this stuff, nor did he even instruct anyone to write it down for future generations.
7. Even these stories themselves have Jesus proclaiming that all his prophecies will come to pass before the generation that he is speaking to live has passed:


Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


So modern people today, even if they were willing to believe these stories, would be perfectly justified in believing that God has already taken whatever souls he wanted and we are nothing other than the decedents of the rejects.

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that Jesus would be coming back some 2000 years later, or more.

8. The very behavior of the God in these fables is totally ungodly. He allows things to get way out of control before he acts to correct the problem and every time he goes to solve a problem he uses violent gory methods, and/or crude punishments as the solution.

There is nothing "all-wise" about that kind of behavior.

In fact, these fables teach people that the "all-wise" and godly way to solve problems is via ignorant crude violent methods of punishing people.

That's a horrible thing to be teaching people in the first place.

The idea that this God is being portrayed are our "Heavenly Father" makes it all the more disgusting. This implies that his behavior should be seen as a perfect and divine model for parenting.

I certainly disagree that crude punishments (often in the form of physical pain) are an "all-wise" approach for teaching and mentoring children.

Women are supposed to "learn a lesson" from painful childbirth that disobeying God is a bad thing to do and that they shouldn't do it?



Non-believers of these fables are supposed to believe that a perfect all-wise cosmic parent would resort to such a disgusting form of "punishment" just to make a point?

~~~~~

If I saw a human parent inflicting those kinds of punishments on their children for the purpose of teaching them "lessons" I would call the child abuse center. And I wouldn't think very highly of that human parent.

Yet the dogma that you support as the "Word of God" expects me to believe that this is the mentality of God?

~~~~~~~

So when I say to you, "Don't tell me that I have been told God's laws", or that I have no excuse for not believing in these utterly absurd and often quite disgusting fables, I'm stating that in general.

It is this dogma that put that into your head. That's where you got these ideas from. All you are doing is regurgitating the dogma.

All I am doing is regurgitating it right back onto you.

As long as you (a supporter of this dogma) are going continually accuse people like me (someone who flatly rejects these absurdities) as having "no excuse" for not believing that these hideous stories are the "Word of God", then I'm going to take personal offense to that.

I am not taking personal offense from YOU specifically. I take offense from the very authors of this dogma. I am offended by the claims of the dogma itself.

It claims that I have no excuse for not believing that its utterly absurd and hideous stories came from an all-wise divine being.

I am more than rationally justified in rejecting such absurd and hideous stories.

The authors of these fables may have somehow convinced you that you have no excuse for not believing them. But they haven't even come close to convincing me of such nonsense.

I am not afraid to look OUTSIDE of the claims being made by those authors to the bigger picture of humanity. And when I do that I recognize the following things:

1. The Old Testament isn't any more believable than Greek Mythology.
2. It's a lie that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the OT.
(even the Jews didn't fall for that one)
3. Even the accounts of Jesus have Jesus renouncing the immoral teachings of the OT or Torah.
4. It's clearly that the New Testament itself was quite belated rumors about the life of Jesus.
5. It's unreasonable to expect that any second-hand quotes of someone could be retained to the degree of perfect verbatim accuracy that the New Testament authors claim.
6. The idea that Jesus was actually rejecting the immorality of the Torah and instead trying to replace it with far higher morals from other spiritual philosophies such as Buddhism actually makes PERFECT SENSE.
7. The idea that the New Testament is nothing more than superstitious rumors and false claim about his man named Jesus also makes PERFECT SENSE.

8. And finally, the idea that some all-wise God would be party to having his only begotten son nailed to a pole by humans for the sake of proving a way for humans to obtain forgiveness for their sins, is IMHO, utterly unbelievable and utterly absurd.

~~~~

So not only do I have perfectly rational and reasonable excuses to reject these superstitious rumors about Jesus, but it actually makes far more sense to me to reject them rather than to accept them.

Just because these fables have convinced you that there is no excuse for not believing in them doesn't make it so.

And the "you" in the previous sentence applies to everyone who has been convinced that there is no excuse for not believing in the biblical fables.

That's just part of the brainwashing technique that is included in this dogma itself.

The dogma itself has been chosen when it was canonized to only include stories that are designed to try to convince the reader that to refuse to believe in the dogma is itself one of the greatest offenses that can be committed against God.

This is precisely what religious authoritarians were trying to create. They were trying to create a religious dogma that would trump all other religions.

Believe in our religion or you are an offense against God!

There is NO EXCUSE for not believing in OUR religion!

Baloney!

This religion was created by humans in an attempt to create a religion that would trump all other religions.

It starts out commanding: 1. "Put no other God's before OURS!"

And it ends up proclaiming: 2. "You are without excuse to not believe in OUR religion!"

These are both nothing more than man-made religious propaganda.

The latter is clearly an outright lie. There are tons of quite sane and rational reasons for not believing that these fables have anything to do with any all-wise supreme being.

Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

This thing about free will is BS.
You can get sick even if you don´t will it. And you must die like everyone else. The things that are really impoortant do not happen to people because they will them. You cannot even will the way your child is going to look when he/she is born. And you certainly can´t will the rain, or the wind to blow, or a fruit to grow from a tree out of season.
You are in for a big surprise if you believe that lie about free will. Creation may be many things, but it is not a free for all. I doubt even if it is democratic. Haha,

God is not the boss of me because I have free will.

Any religious leader who tries to tell you how you should live your life is not the boss of you either.

Free will is free will. There are not strings attached.

God doesn't order anyone around. He says every man will be able to choose to accept him or reject him and his payment one day will be based on that. So it's up to you, totally.

It's government that controls your free will. You are fined and punished for literally everything you do these days, and spied on with every camera and monitoring device.

By the way, have you purchased a TV converter? Might be interested in watching the you tube movies about the converter with cameras in them.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22you+tube%22&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images&tbs=#q=converter+camera+site:youtube.com&sa=X&ei=6nlpTr-kI4vTiAKO5dyXDg&ved=0CEcQ2wE&hl=en&lr=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=962fe6c90d43a230&biw=1024&bih=668

I don't believe that my t.v. has a camera in it, but there is this little red light that's always on, and right under it is this dark square... maybe it is a camera lens... okay, I'm putting some tape over that.