Sure it is, we could have been made with no conscious though. Just did as God wanted us to do when he wanted it. We didn't have to be made with free will, thus it's a gift.

You opinion, not mine.

Please if you would, do tell how free will is not a gift. Is it not a blessing to be able to get up and do things how you wished to do them? Is it not a blessing to be the one who thinks for your life?

If you are pantheist and believe that all things are one, all things are connected, (I believe this) then there is only one will.

That will is the will of the one.

All will is free.

As God manifests as living creatures the will is the will to live and survive. That is inherent in all creatures.

As God manifests living beings who eventually evolve to become more conscious sentient and self aware, these living beings realize the will of God that is inherent in them and begin to make use of it.

The illusion is that this will is their own personal will given as a gift, but how can God give a gift to Itself?

The will is the will.

It is inherent in all things that are God.

All things are God.

So your will is purely for survival? Not meaning to be offensive but seems a little selfish. Animals do not love, so no they do not follow the will of God as the same as we are to. Animals will is for survival, whatever that may bring. Survival is key. God's will is for us to love one another and to survive as a whole again animals do not do this. They only know the instincts of survival for them self or for the pack in cases of the animal in mention being one whom stays in a group. But even the ones who stay together in a group, do not do things out of "love". They do not think their actions out. They instinctively do them, and instinctively keep the pack strong because their is power in numbers. We did not evolve from monkeys and or "primates". That is still nevertheless a theory. The theory of evolution. We have no solid absolute scientific reasoning of our existence.

The above assumptions could involve a long explanation of what 'love' is. I might ask why you think you know that animals "don't love" but that would be a long fruitless conversation without first agreeing on what 'love' is.

God manifests as all living creatures, including animals. They are programmed to know how to survive and evolve to survive. It is the will of the one that they live and survive. They follow the will of the one by surviving.



Animals are as much a part of the body of the one as anything else. They are programmed through DNA according to the will of the one. (God)




Everything is as it should be. Instincts for survival are the will of the one.

Love is the creative force and it is in ALL LIVING THINGS.

LOVE is not what you think it is as a human thinks of it.

This is not about the theory of evolution. It is about the will of the one.

My will is Gods will.

Once you realize the will of the one, you have perfect faith.

I know animals do not love each other for they have multiple partners, they do not cling to one another. Yes I do realize their are some species out there that have life long partners, but I'm speaking on a general note here. Animals can and do turn on each other all the time especially in times of their life being threatened. If the animal loved the other animal they wouldn't run away in times of danger of loosing their life. They would stick around to try to help the other.

Cowboy, no offense but you don't know what love is.

Even the Bible says that God is love. Love is the creative force itself. God manifests as all things including animals.

All is God.

Love is the greatest, most powerful, strongest force in the world. It is unmeasurable. You know not what I know, so please try not to infer you know as such. Love is unconditional. Animals do not love. If they loved they would not be territorial, cause again love is unconditional. Animals are programmed for survival of their species. Mating and eating bout sums it up. They do this ruthlessly, they do not care whom or what they hurt in the process as long as it gets done.

Cowboy wrote:

We did not evolve from monkeys and or "primates". That is still nevertheless a theory. The theory of evolution. We have no solid absolute scientific reasoning of our existence.


That's nothing more than your uneducated personal opinion.

The scientists hold a totally different view. They have overwhelming evidence that we evolved from primates. Evidence that they are totally convinced of and cannot be denied.

You continue to refuse to evolution as merely a 'theory'. But apparently you ignore the overwhelming evidence for evolution. Evidence is not theory.

Moreover, the fables of the Bible cannot possible be true.

The entire human race today cannot not possibly be the genetic product of the incestuous procreation of just two human individuals named Adam and Eve.

Moreover, the "Fall from Grace" of this mythical Adam and Eve could not have been responsible for having brought death, disease, and all manner of imperfections into the world including thorns growing on plants like the Biblical fables claim.

Death, disease, thorns on plants, and animals eating other animals was a natural occurrence on this planet long before humans appeared on the planet.

And this is true whether the humans evolved or whether they had been placed here fully formed.

So the claim that the fall from grace of humans is responsible for all the 'evils' of the world is clearly a totally fictitious superstitious myth.

Yet this is the very basis of Christianity and the Biblical fables.

This is very similar to the situation we had with the Greek Gods. We dismissed them because no Gods live on Mt. Olympus, thus the fables have been shown to be false.

Well, the biblical fable have also been shown to be false. The very claim that humans 'fall from grace' brought all the imperfections into the world including death and thorns growing on plants, is simply a false superstition that cannot possibly be true.

Thus the Hebrew Mythology is every bit as false as the Greek Mythology.

In order for you to continue to support these religious myths you need to become totally at war with modern intellectual knowledge.

Rather than acknowledging that these myths have indeed been exposed to be the myths they are, you would rather fight against this knowledge in favor of supporting these untenable superstitious myths.

Myths that require that our creator can only solve problems using violent and derogatory means.

These myths have this God dealing with the problem of Eve's disobedience by punishing all human women with a curse that they shall suffer in childbirth from that day forward.

These myths have this God dealing with the problem of the serpent by making him crawl on his belly for the rest of his days, which is supposedly why snakes crawl on their bellies.

These myths have this God dealing with the problem of sin by first offering atonement for sins if a blood sacrifice is offered up to the God (not different from Greek Mythology in that at all)

These myths have this God dealing with the problem of sin by drowning humans out and flooding the entire planet (another scientific impossibility)

These myths have this God dealing with the problem of sin by turning disobedient people into a pillar of salt.

These myths have this God dealing with the problem of sin by rallying his chosen people to murder every man, woman, and child of the sinful culture and even taking an active part in this war by causing the walls of the city of the sinners to crumble.

These myths have this God ultimately dealing with the problem of sin by sending his son to have his son butchered on a pole to pay for the sins of man so that they can be forgiven.

This is the "Christian twist" on these fables where the God has a totally different tactic on solving the problem of sin via offering forgiveness for it, yet it still contains this absurd notion of a violent blood sacrifice being required as payment.

Let's rejoice in the wonder and Glory of this asinine God who solves all his problems through VIOLENCE in totally absurd ways.

And let us renounce all of scientific knowledge in order to support these totally Zeus-like myths.

What is the point of even bothering with such absurdities?

If our creator was truly as screwed up as these fables demand he wouldn't be worthy of our worship anyway. The only thing we could possibly offer him would be our sympathy for how screwed up he is.

So even if they were true, we'd be in a totally pathetic and hopeless situation.

We'd just have a God who isn't even worthy of our respect, yet he would be demanding that we either worship him or be cast into everlasting punishment (just proving that he is indeed violent beyond imagination)!

A God that is totally unworthy of anyone's respect or love.

Sounds more like humans to me.

You do not know what love is in my opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion.

Cowboy wrote:

"Love is unconditional."

Well, if love is unconditional then the biblical God can't have anything at all to do with love because according to the bible God set outs a whole lot of very strict conditions that are required to obtain his love.

Moreover, the Christians have taken this to the extreme by proclaiming that God will not love anyone who doesn't acknowledge that Jesus was the Christ and is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Lest the person be condemned into everlasting punishment.



Clearly the biblical fables have absolutely nothing to do with any concept of unconditional love because these fables place more conditions on God's love than Carter has pills!

Pantheism is the only spiritual picture of God that offers true unconditional love.

In Pantheism God has set things up where every 'soul' (every conscious individual) must necessarily return to God unconditionally. No matter what they have done, they will return to God, because there is nowhere else to go.

That is truly unconditional love. No 'soul' is ever lost, nor could that even happen. It simply isn't even a possibility.

The Zeus-like Biblical God on the other hand condemns the vast majority of souls to everlasting punishment because they have failed to satisfy the conditions required to win his so-called "gift" of love.

The Biblical myths even have Jesus verifying this by saying that the path is straight and the gate is narrow that leads to eternal life and the Kingdom of God, and FEW will make it.

This means that in the biblical picture of God the vast majority of souls will be lost due to the fact that they didn't satisfy the extremely straight and narrow conditions required to obtain the Biblical God's love.

Pantheism is the only picture of a God who truly offers unconditional love to everyone without condition.

If you truly believe this, and you believe that the Biblical God represents unconditional love, then there can be no conditions that need to be met in order to obtain this God's love.

So the whole Christian claim that there is a dire need to seek salvation through redemption in order to avoid this God's wrath (which is hate) flies in the very face of your proclamation that Love is unconditional.

Unconditional love has to be dispassionate.

Meaning that if you have unconditional love for a serial killer who kills and tortures children, you can't have any feelings of hatred for this person if you have unconditional love for him. So what does that unconditional love actually 'feel' like?

And how is that possible to have good feelings for a serial killer and torturer of children? What would it take to be able to love that person or have "unconditional love" for that person?

So love is not an emotion, and it it also not simply a feeling.

Love is a creative power. (It is the force talked about in Star Wars.)

Love is the force of life itself. It is the desire to exist.

Exactly. Unconditional love must be dispassionate. Totally devoid of feelings. Especially in an egotistical sense where an individual 'soul' is being judged to be worthy or unworthy of being loved.

In order for God to have the kind of egotistical "passionate love" that humans have, then God too would need to have an ego.

It makes no sense to say that you 'passionately love' a sick demented person who enjoys torturing and disfiguring helpless little children because he gets off on seeing the anguish in their faces.

That would just be sick.

The only kind of 'love' you could possibly offer such a sick demented person would be dispassionate love. More along the lines of pity and sympathy for their mental state of perversion.

You'd basically need to "forgive them for they know not what they do" type of thing.

That would be unconditional love.

And yes, Jesus in the New Testament supposedly exhibited that form of totally unconditional love on the cross at Calvary.

But fact it Cowboy, you will be the very FIRST one who goes running off rooting through the whole story trying to find verses that you can use to condemn people in Jesus' name for simply denying Jesus!

You are very QUICK to spit in the face of Jesus' display of unconditional love on the cross at Calvary.

You prefer instead to preach condemnation and rejection by Jesus to all those who deny him. In spite of the fact that Jesus himself forgave people for having done precisely that very thing as they were nailing him to a pole!

There are GROSS inconsistencies in the whole Christian story.

The Christians try to have their cake and eat it too.

"God offers unconditional love" - Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

But then they turn right back around and with forked-tongue proclaim, that anyone who refuses to acknowledge that Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is condemned already.

The scriptures themselves do this!

They are convoluted fables that aren't even consistent within their own claims.

They are nothing more than a collection of totally inconsistent rumors.

from pbs.org,, on evolution

'As humans, we have long been interested in our origins. The idea that humans evolved from monkeys is in fact untrue. Humans and all other primates evolved from a common ancestor. Humans have continued evolving since then, and we are still evolving, but at a rate that is so gradual we cannot observe it in the course of a lifetime. In this lesson, you will explore interactive Web features and learn how paleoanthropologists learn about our ancestors.'



, so, no we didnt evolve from monkeys or apes,,,, the theory is that we just all have a common 'ancestor'

This thread is not about evolving from apes or evolution.

It is about making your own decisions, thinking for yourself, and not letting some religious zealot or preacher, (or Book) who claims to speak for God try to tell you how you should live your life.

There is absolutely no conditions to reseve God's love. Eternal life is a GIFT offered. Death is the ending point in life less one wishes to receive this gift. What makes us worthy of such a gift? Our obedience of course. Cause without our obedience we wouldn't deserve such a gift. If you disagree, please elaborate on why you feel you deserve eternal life.

No human has eternal life where the physical body is concerned Cowboy.

All souls have eternal life being part of the one God who has eternal life.

I don't know what you mean by "obedience" because all souls have inherent "free" will if they choose to use it.