You claim that free will can be shown not to exist.

1. First, what do you think free will is exactly?
2. And how do you think it can be shown not to exist?

Im only pointing out that having a 'boss' does not negate having 'free will'

Free will though is NOT "obey me or I'll let you die" that's what the Biblical idea of it is.

do you know of anyone that will not or has not died? letting people die is just a fact of life, whether we call it nature or God

it still does not negate free will why we are living,,,

The reason I titled this thread "God is not the boss of me." Is more because of people's tendency to think they have to be subordinate and obedient to church doctrine under the guise that the church leader or 'prophet' can speak for God and tell people what they must do or how they must live their lives.

I was watching the news about the court case of the man being tried for molesting children and thinking about their belief that a man should have more than one wife and lots of children etc.

Its hard for me to believe that any woman would allow a man, calling himself a prophet or not, to molest their children and call that a religion. It makes me sick that people fear God through such tyranny. Those people are either ignorant or insane in my opinion.

If people would have the attitude that God does not want to run our lives they would not allow such tyranny from the clergy.

God doesn't want to run anyone's life. God created free will.



Marriage, solitude, living together, society and plural marriage are
inventions of humans. They amount to local customs which vary in
different places around the world nothing more.

I'm not apologizing for Jeffs though!

Religious dogma shoots itself in the foot pretty well on its own. The doctrine of Free Will is just more dogma to get the dogma of an omniscient, omnipotent God who practices predestination off the hook.

If God makes all things, knows how they will turn out and what they will do, how can those so made be anything but puppets dancing on the strings of that dogma. Their predestination is assured, lest they show this God to be out of control of his own creations and not knowing that which the dogma of his followers assures us he does.

Then there's the problem of evil. Free Will is the scapegoat that let's God's Will off the hook as the omnipotent ghost writer of the evil that he allows.

-Kerry O.

Why do you think free will had to be "created?"

And I agree that there is no God who wants to run people's lives or wants us to obey him. That is man created religions.

I can not only deny the existence of a supernatural power, but no one can prove the existence of said power. In fact, disbelief is not so much of a denial as it is a flat statement.

As for freewill, we are bound by the conventions of the society in which we live. If we choose to break the mores/ethics of said society, then we also choose the penalties that come with disobeying. That is still freewill (reaction to an action and consequences for choice), but largely, we are written: we do not write.

The BODY dies yes, but the soul does not. When I speak of death I don't mean the physical death, I mean the soul death religion speaks of.

eternal life is a gift, its not an entitlement of being born

I dont think there is anything unfair about it,, but to each their own,,,

It wouldn't be a 'gift' by any stretch of the imagination.

At best it would be a 'prize' from having hit the religion lottery in just the right way.

It would be a casino game, really not much different from shooting craps.

In fact, that's exactly what it would be. A game of shooting religion craps.

Besides that, a gift cannot be earned. If it has to be earned than it is not a gift any longer, by definition. So the term can't apply if you have to do something to get it.

Nice to see you back BTW.

Of course not cause you are incapable of seeing the ridiculousness of it while still in it. You can't see it clearly unless you leave it, otherwise you'll always defend it without really realizing what you are defending.

depends upon the definition of gift

something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation



I can voluntarily transfer a gift to one person and not another because of what I think they have EARNED or DESERVED

why some kids get more 'gifts' than others, for behaving as opposed to getting into trouble


,, gift only means there isnt a 'compensation' for the object, it has little to do with what might MOTIVATE the gift giver to give the gift

or perhaps you cant see the 'ridiculousness' of your pov while you are 'in it'......

Not really, I no longer try to justify things that can't be justified. I may have once before, but the blinders are off now and they won't be going back on again. Until you've been on the side I am on, you really can't understand the difference.

But the compensation is the whole point! The Bible God ONLY gives it if you do this this this and this, so it CAN'T be by definition a gift if one has to do work to get it. It's really that simple.

I dont 'work' to get it, I only try to live life making choices that bring me closer to it,,,,

living is the 'work' , it has to be done regardless of how we choose to do it

so that is not a condition but a reality of being born,,,

Yes but you're missing the point, if we HAVE to do SPECIFIC things to attain heaven, then it can not be a gift, since a gift is given with no strings attached. This is really not that hard.