I know. But the thing is that if you hold onto your beliefs and dont get frustrated or offended it is much easier to come across clearly.
Sometimes your frustration with us all is very clear..
And yep we can be frustrating and annoying, but that is part of who we are, so just read carefully , try and work out what we are saying and respond to us.
We will either laugh with you , tease you, or harrass you.
And believe it or not some of us may even take notice at times.

NEVER MIND.

Its hopeless and a waste of time.

I think I finally figured out the whole problem here Cowboy. You are an absolutist and you're speaking with people who are not.

It's really that simple.

Based on how you perceive the concept of "belief" I have no beliefs at all other than the experience of "I AM" and the perceptions of a physical reality that this experience is associated with, and I'm even open to the idea that this experience itself is some sort of "dream", albeit a very persistent and fairly consistent dream.

You on the other hand use the term "belief" in a far more and narrow and absolute way, for example you state:



You claim to "know" without one inkling of a doubt that Jesus is lord.

You didn't even include in that statement that you "know" that he actually existed, or that you "know" that everything that is written in the Bible is 100% true and accurate. You just jumped to your main obsession and stated the end result which could only follow from a whole succession of previous "beliefs".

You don't even want to bother getting into all that. You just want to state your final conclusion and demand that it's TRUTH. This is almost like a child that just wants a toy and they don't want to talk about what is required to get the toy, they just want the final result and that's all they want to hear about.

~~~~

The rest of us don't work in absolutes like that. We consider lots of different information and build our 'beliefs' based on previous information. Some of us have more conviction to some beliefs than others.

I don't "preach" my beliefs on these forums. I offer plausible scenarios and I support their plausibility with reasoning.

One thing that I believe is extremely plausible is that the entire Old Testament is just Zeus-like fables. That's a plausibility argument, and I give reasons why I feel that this is plausible.

Do I believe that it's just fables? Well, I believe that there is a far greater chance that it is fables, than not. And I offer the reasons why I feel that's the situation.

And this is the way I treat everything.

Do I believe that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist (or at least a Jewish Pantheist who was well-versed in the philosophy of Mahayana Buddhism)? I think that scenario has a far greater probability of being true than the standard orthodox Christian picture. But do I "believe it"? No, not really. I have reason to even believe that Jesus ever truly existed at all. I'm just as open to Jeannie's suggestion that perhaps someone made up the whole story.

So I'm not "preaching any beliefs". I'm just offering up alternative ideas and giving reasons why they seem more probable to me than the standard orthodox views.

I point out the flaws in the scriptures. Do I "believe" there are flaws in the scriptures? I don't need to "believe" I can see them they are part of my direct experience in life. I KNOW there are flaws in those scriptures because I can see them directly. No need to "believe" in anything.

Yet, you are in denial of these flaws, you'd rather chose to "believe" that there are no flaws and just ignore the reality of the situation in favor of pretending that if you believe hard enough they'll go away.

Apparently you "need belief" because you can't handle reality I guess. So you chose to pretend via "belief" that things aren't as they appear.

You're just living in an entirely different "dream" from the rest of us apparently and that's why you aren't willing to discuss reality.

Truly. It's like talking to a wall.

Abra said:


EXACTLY!!

BUT COWBOY YOU SAY THIS:



You have stated your firm belief. Given THAT, THERE CAN BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION!

Why? Because you are not open or willing to consider the idea that YOU MIGHT BE WRONG.

That is what I mean by listening and considering.

The only reason you pretend to listen is so you can come back with your utterly unshakable statement of belief.

Well I say...okeeee dokeee Cowboy. I'm so happy for you that you have it all figured out.

No need to further discuss anything is there?? You ALREADY KNOW IT ALL.

End of discussion. Period.

When you know it all, and cannot be shaken, there is NOTHING ELSE TO LEARN.

When you realize one day, that you don't know it all, then you will learn how to have a real discussion.

Truly.

wow...you guys have alot of patience, lol. cowboy, i have to say, while i don't participate in the religion threads, it was driving me bonkers to read this and not speak. you are young, listen to your elders (this is meant as a compliment!). very wise people here and you would be lucky to learn a thing or two from them as most have probably arrived at their current spirituality through the exploration of others as well. to not do this leads to limited, brain washed thought process. your words, while i truly believe you believe them, come off sounding like nothing more than programmed propaganda, computer generated reponses. you lack heart and soul in them. why? i feel it is because you are bound by walls that only allow you to see so far. you yourself said somewhere that it may not be a fact that the earth was mostly water, why? because you could not see any looking out your window. what close minded thought that is.

don't just say you consider other's beliefs and then automatically disagree. learn of them, gather knowledge, know as much as you can about as much as you can, always. this is not turning your back on what you believe, it is learning and in fact, it should, if your faith is true, solidify it moreso for you.

learn to speak from your heart and soul because you have walked many miles, explored many other things, possibilities, and then people will know you are that which you speak. to do anything less is just very close minded, borderline phony, and definitely that which comes across as just programmed. KNOW your truth, and know that you can only speak from the heart when it comes with the KNOWledge of both, what it is and what it isn't. that can only be gained through exploration outside of walls. peace.

That's not quite what I said. I said the fact that most of the world is water would by all means taken on faith that it is true. Yet people will keep this as total fact. Was merely a point. I didn't deny the fact that the world is this way.

And btw, I'm not programmed lol. I've not been forcibly taught anything. I have willingly listened. I don't have the faith that I have because I was taught about it as a child. Heck I didn't know most of what I do know till about 6 or so years ago, when I "found" God. I have studied, read, asked inquiries, ect since then to reach the way I am today. So that's why I just think it's funny about the "programmed" comments.

About your closed minded comment:
- So if you know that going down street brown will get you to the bank and you choose not to take other "possible" routs, one is close minded?
- If you know for a fact that water freezes at 32 F at sea level and not willing to concede this to it freezing at say 34, you are closed minded?

If you know something is a true, then is it not wise staying with that thought? Is it truly wise to simulate with others just because? Is it truly wise to concede the knowledge that you have just because someone else says differently? If you know something for sure, then why and how could you sway from it? You know it is true, so why would one wish to change from that?

Because you DON'T KNOW.

You just think you know. You can't possibly KNOW.

You can only have faith.

Having faith is not knowing
When you think you KNOW you close your mind like a TRAP.
All information coming in is blocked.

Because you THINK YOU KNOW OTHERWISE. And you won't ever consider the possibility that you may be wrong.

When and if you ever discover that you have been wrong about anything you now think you know, you are in for a very rude awakening.

I do speak from my heart and soul. Heck I spend countless hours in here discussing, not because I have nothing else to do, not because I get paid, not because I have anything coming to me for doing as such. I do this out of love eg., from my heart and soul.

That is why I've recently taken offense to some offensive direct insults to the Christian faith. It hurts my heart and soul to hear/see such things. I have great passion and love for everybody in the world, that is why it hurts so badly for people to through insults at it. If they don't believe, that is fine. That is their choice, their decision. But to throw insults at it just hurts tremendously.

You say I don't know? ok then even outside of "religion" how does one know something? What draws the line of knowing and believing?

Having faith is not knowing
When you think you KNOW you close your mind like a TRAP.
When you are sure beyond doubt that you know, your mind is closed. Blocked.

All information coming in is blocked. You can't really consider any other possibilities. You can't really learn anything new.

Because you THINK YOU KNOW OTHERWISE. And you won't ever consider the possibility that you may be wrong.

When and if you ever discover that you have been wrong about anything you now think you know, you are in for a very rude awakening.

So my question(s) still stand.

How does one know something? and what draws the line between knowing and believing?

Quick example-
You know Abraham was a president of the USA. But with your way of thinking/analyzing things, you would only THINK he was a president. Cause there would be absolutely no way for you to know this, you were not there. So please, explain where's the line between knowing and just believing?

What I accept as "probably true" is not the same as "knowing without a doubt."

I will make it simple for you.

In order to maintain an open mind, I maintain that I don't know anything for certain except that I exist. That is the only thing of which I am certain.

I don't claim to know the nature of my existence, only that I exist.

I am.

So you believe no history as true? You believe no science as true? You believe nothing as true, but that you exist?

Try to read what I wrote.

I did read what you wrote. Try to read what I wrote.

you said


So in return I asked

I think that some of history is probably true, some is probably false. Some science is probably true, some false, some incomplete.

In order to keep an open mind, I personally, don't hold certainty in any of these things.

Did Lee Harvey Oswald kill Kennedy? Did John Wilks booth kill Lincoln? Did Columbus discover America? I have my doubts about these things. I may accept some of it as maybe true, or probably true but never absolutely positively true.

The only thing I hold certainty in is that I exist.

Of course that is just me. I do it because I swore to always be open to truth and information no matter what, even it I didn't like it.

It is hard when you discover that what you held to be true turns out to be all wrong or all false. It is very hard when you discover that you have been so very very wrong about something... it really makes you stop and think.

Cowboy, your naivety is truly astounding.

You're analogies miss the point entirely.

When was the last time someone suggested to you that "Water is Lord" or that if you refuse to believe that most of the world is covered by water you are "rejecting God"?

~~~~~

Also apparently you are incapable of grasping the concept of independent evidence. Geological surveys of the Earth have been conducted by independent people for centuries. The amount of independent information concerning the fact that most of the world is covered with water is overwhelming. Plus it doesn't even a believe in anything supernatural to accept this fact. There's not even any reason to even be suspicious of it.

Yet, you try to compare that with obscure ancient rumors of absurdly supernatural events of God's speaking from clouds, and saints raising from their graves, etc. Outrageous stories that have absolutely NO independent historical records or evidence to back them up.

Your views and stance on things simply isn't even remotely rational or worthy of consideration. You've actually done yourself a grave disservice by taking these utterly absurd stances because no one is going to give anything you say any crediblity when you talk like this.

You're clearly being irrational and radical and only serving to discredit the religion that you actually claim to support. Perhaps you ultimately don't care about that religion in the first place.

I'm personally willing to bet that you just like to post utterly absurd things to see how people will react to complete nonsense and you truly don't even care about religion at all, that just a topic you use as a means of making your absurd claims.