When one graduates the third grade, goes on to finish school, one does not "go back" to the third grade.

Once you learn truth, you do not go back to believing the lie.

There is no truth. There is only perception. ~Gustave Flaubert

Exactly. That's your teddy bear that will protect you from the boogieman.

It's a fear based religion.

If it wasn't for your belief in the boogieman you wouldn't need a teddy bear anymore.

Besides, I thought Christians held out the notion that Christ loves everyone. Thus Christ is already for everyone.

It sounds to me like you're just trying to turn your religion into a means of division between people.

Like George Bush, "You're either with us or against us!"

Christianity is a war mongering religion proclaiming everyone who refuses to support their religious bigotries as being the "Enemy of God".

If you people would quit running around trying to make out like everyone is your enemy then perhaps you wouldn't have so many enemies.

You should drop that religion and try picking up a religion that's all about brotherly LOVE instead of being about brotherly division.

"If you refuse to convert to our religion, God will hate you, we will hate you, and Satan will be your GOD!"

And then you wonder why people find your religion to be so obnoxious.

Is that what you believe?

in the abstract, yes

I fail to see how 'you are either with us or against us' is the same as 'If Christ is for us, who can be against us?'


anywhere that we have stated "If you refuse to convert to our religion, God will hate you, we will hate you, and Satan will be your GOD!"


with us or against us is pretty black and white, it implies that if you dont support EVERYTHING you must support NOTHING about 'us'


if christ is for us implies that christ has alligned with us to keep us safe from those who might harm us

for christians like myself it is only about those who would HARM us, not about what people believe or support,,,

My ideas are more abstract than that.

Truth is information.

but information is obtained through perception,,,

You're right MsHarmony.

In fact, I thought about this after I had posted. My response was an over-reaction.

If 'Christ' is on the side of "good" then he's on the side of all good people whether they are "Christians" or not.

That would be a given.

I guess my over-reaction is that I get sick of seeing so many individual "Christians" attempting to hoard Jesus as though he somehow favors them over someone else. But I guess Freaky wasn't truly implying that at all.

So my apologies for the over-reaction.

I'm sure that if Jesus has any spiritual power he would "side" with anyone who is "good" versus anyone who is "evil". No matter what religious faiths or beliefs they may or may not have.

True, but information exists regardless of perception.

There also exist deception.

People who believe, or claim, to know "truth" when in fact they have no clue if what they believe is true.

People who either can't comprehend the difference between faith and knowledge, or who are in total denial that there is even a difference.

Many Christian proselytizers on these very forums often claim that they hold "truth". That is actually an outright lie. All they truly have is faith, and an inability to comprehend the difference between faith and truth, or an outright denial that all they have is mere faith.

Clearly they are not only lying to everyone they speak to, but their lie goes far deeper than that. They are actually being totally dishonest with their very own self.

Faith, does not equate to truth.

Moreover existing information often conflicts with many of the things that they claim to be 'truth'.

So there is more than just perception, there also exist deception and denial.

Anyone who claims that their faith = truth, is clearly already in denial. They are being dishonest with themselves already.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." — Richard P. Feynman

The bible interprets itself;
the answers and definitions are in God's Word...
Why do so many of you try to explain the scriptures
in your own terms?

Speaking of "fear", I sense plenty of it in this forum...

The terms you discuss are often words
that are defined best with a concordance.

I think most of you confuse yourselves
by not using the Bible itself or a Bible dictionary
or concordance.

But the "fear" of being a "thumper"...
...or the "fear" of being converted to God's will
is so taboo to you that you dare not open any of these books...

true or false?

"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee,
but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways,
and to love him,
and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart
and with all thy soul," Deu_10:12,...

If this phrase appears to be a contradition
or an impossibility then...

Strongs's Concordance is an excellent source
of finding the Hebrew and Greek definitions of each word.

The Bible is an inanimate object. It can't think and it can't interpret itself.




Perhaps you are sensing aggravation and frustration instead.




Most Atheists or X-believers in the Bible know more about the Bible than Christians.




Laughably false.

But I have challenged true believers to read a few books of my suggestion, but they won't do it. They are not interested. It is the same with some of us. We have been there, done that, not interested anymore.



All that stuff about fearing the Lord is simply telling people to become aware of the consequences of their actions.

Universal laws of cause and effect do not play favorites.

To walk in the "lord's ways" is simply to do what is right.

Serving "the lord" is simply to serve others and help others.

Amazing Fact, FreakyShiki!!!

You're discounting those that actually did READ it and once believed in it, but upon closer inspection became disillusioned with it.

Oh wait I forgot, it's their fault isn't it? Never can be the book being wrong, it's always our fault.

If it was so damn simple, why the hell do even those who BELIEVE in it all differ on what it says?

Well, in my case it's absolutely false.

The accusation that I'm willfully turning against God by refusing to believe in these utterly insane stories is a totally false claim in and of itself.

This is one TRUTH that I CAN know!

And since these very fables seem to be holding out this accusation, that proves right there that they are necessarily filled with lies.

That should be sufficient right there to dismiss them entirely.

Why even bother going beyond that?

CR:
The bible interprets itself;
the answers and definitions are in God's Word...
Why do so many of you try to explain the scriptures
in your own terms?

Jb:
The Bible is an inanimate object. It can't think and it can't interpret itself.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Heb_4:12,

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Isa_9:7,

Other than the fact that there are biblical explanations ,
within the Word of God, God Himself is faithful and watches over His every Word to perform it. He is the Greatest Promise Keeper.

CR:
Speaking of "fear", I sense plenty of it in this forum...

Perhaps you are sensing aggravation and frustration instead.

Yes, I can see how you may be frustrated and aggravated when you haven't a clue as to the true meanings of Biblical terms. You "fear" to put your doubts aside long enough to study the Word in its intended context.

You may read the Bible more than a lot of Christians( and that is
to their shame) but their having the "fear" of God
reveals more wisdom than you shall ever have.

Don't let this happen to you--->
"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Romans 1:22

CR:
The terms you discuss are often words that are defined best with a concordance.

I think most of you confuse yourselves by not using the Bible itself or a Bible dictionary or concordance.

Jb:
Most Atheists or X-believers in the Bible know more about the Bible than Christians.

You Atheists know only surface things but the true message you are missing...it is hidden from you. You must hear the Word, Trust God, repent ,and be converted... or you will miss it.

CR:

But the "fear" of being a "thumper"...
...or the "fear" of being converted to God's will
is so taboo to you that you dare not open any of these books...

true or false?

JB:
Laughably false.

But I have challenged true believers to read a few books of my suggestion, but they won't do it. They are not interested. It is the same with some of us. We have been there, done that, not interested anymore.

"True believers" are soldout to God Almighty. Why should they turn to read something that you yourself are not committed to (various books by people of all sorts of religious and nonreligious persuasions).

You are convinced of nothing that you read outside the bible.
You're risking with your own souls and others' as well...
By the time any of your followers are persuaded of your present beliefs you will catch wind of another fly-by-night and give praise to a whole other thought. Standing on shakey ground.

CR:
"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul," Deu_10:12,...

If this phrase appears to be a contradition or an impossibility then...

Strongs's Concordance is an excellent source
of finding the Hebrew and Greek definitions of each word.

Jb:
All that stuff about fearing the Lord is simply telling people to become aware of the consequences of their actions.

Universal laws of cause and effect do not play favorites.

Cause and effect cannot in and of itself "play" anything.
All things have their beginning with the Creator.

Jb:

To walk in the "lord's ways" is simply to do what is right.

Serving "the lord" is simply to serve others and help others.

Serving others "in His Name" is serving Him...
because He commanded us to do these things.

"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work
and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name,
in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister."
Heb_6:10,


On the other hand, all you can do is temporarily fix man's dilemmas.
What is RIGHT is to serve God, God's WAY.

Man is powerless without Almighty God, his Maker.