Hardly. Most people who show why the Bible has no merit have indeed shown how their conclusions are supportable by both logic and reason.

To accept your views a person must toss out everything that's logical and reasonable and instead jump to totally unwarranted conclusions that are riddled with logical contradictions and rational absurdities.

In fact, this has been recognized even by the authors of the Bible themselves this is why they always say that it is a matter of "FAITH" because it clearly doesn't qualify as being rational.

Oh but you've shown absolutely no contradictions that held grounds after a while of investigation. It's only irrational to you, there's only absurdities to you.

I watched an interesting sermon just the other day which explained why people believe the way they do.

Everyone has accepted something as being truth or as its commonly referred to as "The way it is". They then put this in their own mind as what the man referred to as "the Filter"

So lets say you believe in evolution. Then that is your "Filter" from which all reason is put through before you believe it.

So when the atheist hears the bible all biblical reason is filtered out as being illogical. Because it does not fit with what the atheist sees as reason.

Same thing with the Buddhist,the wiccan,the wizard, whatever.

So by you saying that it is not rational, all that means is YOU have a different filter than the Christians around here.
That being said, What you said could very well be Irrational as well.

Unless you can provide undeniable evidence to support your point, you fail to convince anyone, due to the logic I just pointed out.

That is a great point.

In fact, I would say that to have blind faith is not to really have faith. Similarly, to look at the Bible as fiction without reading it, or pluck verses out of context to justify your unbelief shows an unwillingness to know the truth.

In short, to develop a strong faith, you must question and study and pray and question and study and pray and...

You see what I am saying here.

Thanks,
Shiki

I have a couple questions and they are sincere and I hope to get a sincere responce back from whomever would like to respond.

I don't understand the quote above "that to have blind faith is not to really have faith".

I think most people accept that faith can no longer be faith if there is some objective justification that supports the belief. So literally - faith IS blind, it has to be blind in order to be defined as faith.

So what does your quote mean?

Secondly, if your faith is only faith becuause you read a book to get it, than is it god you believe in or an objective piece of literature that tells you what you need to believe in order to have faith?

Furthermore - since all you ever need to know about your beliefs, is contained in a book then there would seem to be no avenue for change. That seems inconceivable, considering that every major advancement in human history has made it necessary for us to make changes in our cultures, our traditions, and our morals, in order to adapt to the social circumstances of existence.

If you see it another way, I'd like to hear about it.

Thank you for commenting. In response to your questions:

"I don't understand the quote above "that to have blind faith is not to really have faith".

Faith, like anything, has to be nurtured. In fact, even Christ Himself grew in wisdom. To read the Bible without questioning (that is, to have blind faith) is not really having faith. However, when you question and examine and pray, and see that the Bible is the most logical explanation of things, then, you have true faith. If you read what Jesus says, you learn that He too put things forth in such a way that causes us to question how things really are.

As an example, take John 3:17. "I did not come to condemn the world, but to save it." Well, if Christ is not condemning us, then we should not condemn God, others, or ourselves.

"Secondly, if your faith is only faith because you read a book to get it, than is it God you believe in or an objective piece of literature that tells you what you need to believe in order to have faith?"

The Bible is not merely a book, but God Himself. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God."

How awesome is it that we have unfettered access to God any time we want?

it is also many books, compiled into one, not JUST one book.

it also has verifiable information included in its words and includes prophecies and descriptions one would expect people of such 'primitive' means to not know or understand yet.

Freaky,

To say that the Bible is not merely a book, but God Himself is a gross misinterpretation of the verse (statement) you quoted.

It simply says nothing of the sort.

In the beginning there was no Bible. There was only the word. So, what was the word? The Word was God.

Nowhere in that statement did it even vaguely suggest that the word was a book or that God was a book.

So what actually is meant by "word?" A word is a sound and a sound is a vibration.

In the beginning was a vibration. So in the beginning there was only this vibration and it was a sound.

Next came the light and so on......

The Bible is a book. It is not God.

The Bible is the living, breathing Word of God.

I understand what the statement means. I'll give you an example. I have faith in universal law. The laws are in place and those laws hold the universe together down to the quantum level. I am not a scientist, but I understand and have seen how these laws work. The laws of cause and effect, the law of attraction, the law of consequences, the law of Karma etc. Whatever you want to call them.

I think the universe is a thinking substance and is intelligence, but it operates using these laws in a very automatic manner.

I have faith in the laws. I don't question what is and I don't curse God when bad things happen. It is all according to the law.

You are not having a conversation when you make illogical statements like that. You are parroting what you have been programed to say. You are not actually thinking for yourself. To even attempt to converse with you would be as futile and pointless as arguing with my computer.

Have a blissful day.

JeannieBean, you do insult people. You ask a question, and when somebody disagrees with you, you state they are illogical. Why? To say that someone is programmed because they believe something is not the makings of an open discussion.

If you do ask a question, you should not insult those who answer it.

If you noticed, I created a topic called Are Atheists Open for a Discussion. Although I believe God exists, I do take claims not to insult those who do not. If you read those posts, I try to ask things from the purpose of people being open to respond, not to insult others.

As an example, there is a post in this category about Christ's Resurrection. I noticed that nobody who are evolutionists have responded. I don't say anything about that, although it does puzzle me that those who cried to the hilt that Christ's resurrection could not be proven are all too quiet when faced with solid facts.

And so, even though we disagree with each other, when you insult the other side, you are giving credence to their viewpoint.

Think about it.

When you make a statement like: "The Bible is the living, breathing Word of God."

You should be prepared to explain what you actually mean by that, because literally it is clearly illogical. Meaning, if by "Bible" you are referring to a physical book and you are saying that it is alive and breathing, then you are clearly delusional.

Saying that your statement is illogical is not an insult to you unless you are your statement. I did not say that you are illogical. I said that your statement is illogical.

Also, I said that you are not having an actual conversation because instead of addressing my points you simply make an illogical statement.

If you want to actually communicate you should try reading what I write, and don't read in between the lines something you think I mean.

If you feel your statement is logical, then please feel free to explain the logic in it.

If on the other hand, you are speaking metaphorically or of something else entirely, then you should be more clear about what you mean.

The bible contains the word(s) of our lord and will never die, thus the word is eternal, thus the bible is the breathing word of God. Again, since the bible will never die, it is the LIVING, breathing word of God.

What do you find illogical about what I said?

Not everybody's 'filter' works in exactly the same way. There is a huge difference between being committed to evidence and reason, and being committed to a particular higher-order belief about 'the way it is'. I've had conversations with people who turned on a dime when they had the error of their thinking clearly shown to them. I have even seen this kind of humility/intelligence/integrity to some extent in Christians, but not (yet) in any fundamentalist Christians.



For some people, evolution is a banner they rally around in their hostility towards creationism... for others, it is simply a very reasonable theory that does a decent, if imperfect, job of fitting the available evidence. Too often creationist think that all that believe in evolution do so with the same level of commitment.



Really? I have never known an atheist who rejects all reason given in the bible, because it came from the bible. Maybe you can show us. Give us an example of 'biblical reason' and let us tell you whether we agree with it - and if we disagree, why we do.



This is also not true. Many intelligent people can evaluated the rationality of a thought process independent of their allegiance to ideologies that are supported/denied by the conclusion of that thought process.

But this line of thinking you suggest here - these lies about the absolutism of other people's filters... well I would expect that they are a comfort to people who are frustrated when the beliefs they promote are rejected by others.

In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. ~Blaise Pascal


Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. ~Martin Luther King Jr.


Fear is faith that it won't work out. ~Sister Mary Tricky

Who is more foolish, the child afraid of the dark or the man afraid of the light? ~Maurice Freehill

Words are not alive. They don't breathe. Books are not alive, they don't breathe either. The Bible is a book, and object. It cannon't live or die.

If you are speaking metaphorically I understand that you mean to profess that the Bible is the word of God.

I am saying that it is completely written by human beings. If human beings are God, that's another story. Then every book ever written is written by God if that is the case.

That's tricky.

RE:


massagetrade.




I think you are right here massagetrade. I remember when I worked very hard to convince others of something I strongly believed. It was frustrating.

I think its nice when we do meet people who agree with us on some things. It is nice to find people of like minds. But you will never ever find someone who sees things exactly the way you do and so to try to convince anyone to come around to your particular way of thinking is a futile waste of time.

But if we are willing to actually listen and make an effort to see where the other person is coming from and why, we can learn new things.

In teaching an art class, I found that all the new students just wanted to dive right in there and smear some paint on the canvas. In the beginning they just want experience. I found that they almost NEVER actually listen to what I have just told them. I find I have to repeat and repeat and repeat an instruction and still they have to struggle getting it all wrong a few times before they are willing to even listen to what I have said.

And they don't even remember that I said it.

People want to find their own way and they will not accept help until they decide, then, when they finally ask, then they may begin to listen.