God said to Satan, "I permit you to hurt Job. But you must not kill him."

This implies that Satan is quite obedient to God and can't do anything without God's permission.

The story of Job is an example of faith. Satan said Job would not worship him if he wasn't protected by Yahweh. Yahweh has said all through the scriptures that he does not want a uncheerful believer who is out for thier own gain.. But 1 who is out to do right and follows Yahweh's way.

Job did not understand what was happening and his friends turned aginst him telling him how Yahweh was displining him because he had done wrong.. Job did not know but knew if he kept true all would be ok.. Satan has not won anything. How can satan win anything when Yahweh knows the beginning from the end ie Prophecy and satan for his actions is banned from Yahweh's presence hence his childrens presence in the Millinium and then after for good.

Job proved many things.. That you see who your real friends are when everything goes wrong in your life. who stands by you is your real friends. How many of us have only learned that lesson through our own tribulations? most I would say. Job is a great example as is Yahshua of believing with real faith and you may not know the out come but what you do know is Yahweh is in control and he teaches us and makes us stronger through tribulations..

Matt 5:10-12
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
NKJV


Rejoice when you are tried with tribulation if you really believe because the final outcome will make you stronger and everyone around you as they see your faith in action.. Things words can never convey. Leading by example is most definately a attribute of Yahweh and his children. Job is not a hard story to understand but many want to twist it for thier own agenda which we see quite frequently these days as is also Prphecied so stay strong and Yahweh will teach you and guide you to places beyond your wildest dreams. That whats been happenoing to me in the last few months after almost 10 years of people saying all kinds of evil against me. Yahweh sustained me where no other comfort was thier. he has lead me to a place in the Indian language means Heavens valley or the Valley of Heaven brought my children back to me in ways that only he could do.. nothing I said could do anything but believing Yahweh brought me through and I am so much stronger for it and learned so much from it.. like it says in Rev 12 once the birthing pains are gone you rejoice over the new life before you.. Blessings of Shalom..Miles

Satan has not won anything. How can satan win anything when Yahweh knows the beginning from the end

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't being a stand-up person for Christ a 24/7 endeavor? It's more than repeating the Creeds and revelling in the Good News on Sunday in Church. Especially after one has been out on a bender in the strip club on Saturday night?

I have a great respect for the Quakers who live near here in Philadelphia. The NEVER proselytize and they would NEVER make this sort of joke. In their cultural memory, they know well what it means to be a persecuted minority for the convictions one holds close. That's why they came to the new world to start over and named their capital city The City of Brotherly Love.

Too, humans of all creeds don't like being made fools of for taking someone at their word who later drops all pretense of sincerity and laffs up their sleeves while saying "Trust me."


-Kerry O.

Oh Mr. Miles BRAVO!

You got it baby!

That was precisely the moral that the author of this story expected us to come away with. That was the goal of the author of this story without a doubt!

You pass reading comprehension with flying colors!

That's exactly what you're supposed to come away from this story with.

As a moral story it's great!

But as a supposed verbatim description of a true interaction between an all-wise God and a supposed fallen angel it fails miserably.

First off, why is God taking up "bets" with Satan?

What does God have to PROVE to Satan?

Secondly, what would an all-knowing God need to TEST Job for?

And all-knowing God who already knows what's in the hearts of men?

There would be no reason for God to test Job. Just as YOU yourself has suggested:



If Yahweh knows the beginning from the end, then Yahweh would know the outcome of Job's actions.

And like I say, what would Yahwah have to PROVE to Satan?

Yahwah should have no need to prove anything to Satan.

You claim that Satan has not won anything. Perhaps not within the story of Job. No, not there. Satan LOST that particular bet.

But in the overall picture, if this is a game or "war" between Satan and God, to see who can win over the most souls, then Satan is clearly the BIG WINNER in the BIG PICTURE.

The stories spell this out in no uncertain terms.

In the Old Testament every thought of every man had supposedly turned "evil" (i.e. In Satan's favor!)

Even Noah and his family were supposedly only "saved" by the GRACE of God, certainly not because they were perfectly sinless!

The God drowned out the vast majority of the human population as sinners!

Well, that would have been the same as God pushing all the poker chips over to Satan. Human souls are the poker chips in this game between Satan and God. The whole BET or "War" is over who's going to win souls.

Then later in the New Testament, Jesus proclaims that narrow is the gate and straight is the way to the kingdom of God, and few there will be that find it.

Well, if only FEW make it to heaven, that can only mean that the vast majority go over to Satan's side of the poker table!

So even Jesus proclaims that Satan wins the vast majority of souls in this game.

Perhaps Satan was unable to win over Job. But evidently that was a very rare loss for Satan in the larger biblical picture.

~~~~~

But like you Miles, I most certainly DO understand the moral that the author of Job expected us to come away with. Whoever wrote that story probably figured that no one would question the technical details of the "gods" involved. The idea was to just focus on being Job! And to recognize that if you keep the faith you'll ultimately come out on top in the end.

That was indeed the MORAL of the story.

I most certainly agree with you on that point Miles.

It was just a very poorly written story in terms of the fables about a "God" and a "Devil" is all.

Narow is the way and few thier be that find it is way more than thats all thier will be in heaven.

we are talking about Royalty.. those who serve Yahweh with all thier Heart mind and soul. Rev 7 speaks of only 144,000.. these are the chosen. Then after the 144,000 we see a great crowd who gives thier life for the faith.

Just as Abraham was promiced as the stars of heaven would be his descendents.

thats why we see 2 seperate people in Rev 14 and 15.. ones Royalty and the others are priests/teachers to come. just as Peter described and also Exodus.

Thier will be a day when all will know Yahweh's power but they will still deny him because they hate him and will not accept him. Yet Yahweh in the 2nd coming of Yahshua allows over 1 billion people to survive who do not believe. 1/5 of the worlds population while satan is chained for a 1000 years.

This is not satan winning.. he said he will rise to the heavens and be like Yahweh yet he has not been cast down to earth yet and Job points this out as satan goes before the thrown.

These examples of mere himans who have never seen Yahweh and lived because of his brightness as we also see in Zech 14 when Yahshua returns.. many believe this is a nuclear holocost but scripture does not bear that at all as people are living in egypt and coming up to the Feast of Tabernacles each year. nothing speaks of Yahshua doing anything but splitting mount olive I believe in 2. The 2 branches.

Zech 14:12

12 And this shall be the plague with which Yahweh will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
NKJV

Zech 14:16-19

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which Yahweh strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
NKJV

Zech 14:3-4

3 Then Yahweh will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
NKJV


All this is a learning period. All prophets great men who had a Heart for Yahweh understood his power. Death was seen and still is as a departing to a better exsistance.. Thats where True Shalom comes in.. when you are not here to save souls. Yahweh uses your Faith and Obedience to change mens hearts. Thats the great story of Job. Job seems to have lived in the beginning when Yahshua said in the beginning it was not so. when men lived to be a very old age. Job lived sometime around the time of Abraham. When great promices of a far off land and kingdom to thier offspring would come about. Like it says Many Pprophets desired to see a glimpse of Yahshua's day and ours today. They understood the great wisdom of Yahweh in being fair. we will not all die but we will all be changed.

Like the thief on the stake who asked to be in Yahshua's kingdom to come. Yahshua is the 1st born of the dead yet he told him today he would be with him in paradice.

Was the thief the 1st born of the dead? They understood the Psalms. in the grave you know nothing.. It is like sleep.. no knowledge of time.no one in hell. when we sleep when we wake up we do not realize how long we slept. its a glimpsing sec of time. same with death. so see these people like Yahshua knew and understood the birthing pains here are really short compared to eternity. for when we wake up it wil either be to life or death he says choose life.

Could it be we would not be here if Satan and his friends would not of rebelled?
They were around before the earth was void and without form.. who do you think madfe it that away?

But they were created whole before Yahweh and man was created after them to learn from his mistakes.

Satan believed he could trick Yahshua into worshipping him or breaking his fathers will over food. Esau gave up his birthright over food.
Satan has a big head he is like the world.. as we climb the ladder we step on anyones toes to get what we want.

Just an example that Satan pursues the righteous not the sinner and Yahshua went to the sinner not the righteous. The exact oppisite. The devil made me do it... its more like I am a selfish brat and I want it and I want it NOW come hell or high water.

Yahweh is building a vast people for his name who has been through trials and tribulations who will understand right from wrong. Not a child having a temper tandrom like satan.

we will be higher than the angels. why? because we believe and learned the hard way without the evidence you require. Faith that all will be alright. Shalom. peace in your heart that u are just a soldier willing to do whats right no need for a that a boy for us to do it. no golden star put on the refrigerator.. we do it because we love him and we know he loves us and whatever happens happens ours is to be examples just as Yahshua was/is.

Job was a shining example and I do believe he lived and the story is true. The sons of Yahweh appearing before him in Job.. If we know the scri[ptures thats at the Harvest the Feast of Tabernacles that pictures the Millinium when the calf and the lion will eat straw together and a child wil lead them.

Thats why they appeared before Yahweh just like Zech 14 i spoke of earlier that everyone would come.. See Satan went where the Righteous was.. he still appears before Yahweh but we do not see him understanding his fate until Rev 12.. when he is cast out of Heaven and he is ticked. what does he immediately do? he goes after the chosen who Yahweh helps and hides as even Duet 32 speaks of.

Yahweh is in control.. Satan just is a spoiled brat who wants his way and will kick and scream till the end but he does not even understand untill rev 12 then he has to take it out on some one. but see he does he goes after the 2 olive branches of Rev 11 and kills them and the great crowd of Rev 7 is seen in the Remnant of Rev 12 of the chosen.. the ones who hear the word and just are not quite sure what to think.. but when this time period hits they will come out of the woodwork because the whole world sees the 2 witnesses rise in Rev 11 who Zech prophecies they have a flying scroll which to measure the people. The Torah, the word of Yahweh, Yahshua our Messiah. who no test or childish thing will decieve because they are at peace with themselves and others and if they die well thats ok too.. Yahweh's plan will go foward and they will awake to Yahshua. What a Glorious ending knowing when you wake our Messiah and his Kingdom is at hand.

Great Blessing our within the Truths of the Scriptures to you and yours now and in the Kingdom to come.. Blessings Abra...Miles

my mistake, I am asking this rhetorically from observing some of the feelings discussed in this thread regarding religion, the bible, and school

you are correct, as president clinton stated

'As our courts have reaffirmed ... nothing in the First Amendment converts our public schools into religion-free zones, or requires all religious expression to be left behind at the schoolhouse door. While the government may not use schools to coerce the conscience of our students or to convey official endorsement of religion, the government's schools also may not discriminate against private religious expression during the school day.'


I dont think enough people know that because the sentiment comes across that the BIBLE is the enemy that should be withheld by all means in any public place but a church

OK, here is today's question:

Do atheists have a favorite scriptural verse?

OK, here is today's question:

Do atheists have a favorite scriptural verse?

Good verse, Jeanniebean. What about the rest of you?

Atheists are individual people.

I imagine that most of them aren't interested in the Hebrew scriptures to have a favorite verse.

I thought jokes poke fun at human nature,,,,what jokes would be fitting for the 'stand up' person?

I can't answer that question because I am not really an atheist.

But My favorite verse is "God is Love."

That says it all. There is no need for any more verses than that.

George Carlin sums it up well:
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good ******** story. Holy ****!”