Hello all! Shiki here!

OK, I joke about a lot of things. Because after all, laughter is good for the soul, and when a woman laughs, the big boobies bounce more, which is a win-win situation.

However, one thing is not a laughing matter, and it is those people who do not believe in God.

Now, I am not one of these blind believers, but rather someone who believes that (a) God exists; and (b) He grades on a HUGE curve.

Here's my question. Whenever I speak with atheists, they seem to be very angry, and rather insulting. So, I was wondering if this might be a great place to have an open discussion about God, where we are not insulting one another, but simply discussing our respective viewpoints.

Atheists, what say you?

it's people like you representing Christians that make people

remain atheists.

You don't believe in God? How come?

I use to call myself an athiest.... but now I just call myself open.... I'm not a big believer in God, but respect those who do... no judgement from me at all.
Peace

I'll say only this.


I am an atheist. This is not a choice. It's just the way I see reality. That said. I am not hostile to religion. Even with all the evil in the world that has been done in the name of religion. First, I think that religion is cheap psychiatry. People need to feel that they are in a good place in the universe. Second, I think that church fellowship provides an invaluable venue for binding communities together.

I do not think that religion is effective in teaching morals and ethics.

I don't think that it is really anything that requires discussion unless it is important in how you interact with your world.

If you are detecting hostility, it is probably a defense mechanism in anticipation of attack. I have never experienced this, but a number of atheists on this forum seem to feel a little besieged. I can't speak to this.

Hey, Artio:

Here's what I say: Any Christian who lowers himself or herself to attacking an atheist is really not a Christian. And it is funny because many Christians feel the same way about atheists, as when they state they are "progressive."

Faith and grace are God's gifts, and some of us have them, and some of us don't.

I would counter that if you look at this country since 1962 when they took the Bible out of public schools and public prayer out of public schools that we have become less moral. If you look at the movies of the 1950s, the big blockbusters focused on religious themes. Nowadays, not so much. So I do think that God and the Bible (which do not necessarily equal religion) are good moral beacons.

Just my two cents.

Thanks,
Shiki

First of all I laughed at your statement that one thing that is not a "laughing matter" is people who do not believe in God.

Here it is for you to see:

Also, I puzzle over your question that asks:



Now to answer your question I need to know what your concept of "God" is.

Are you talking about some independent (non human) magical being that is worshiped in heaven and who created the earth and who created Adam from the dirt?

If so, my answer is: Of course not. Why would I? There is no logical reason to believe that.

And my question to people who do is: Why do you EXPECT a reasonable person to believe such a fantasy?

It's an absolutely valid point-of-view. My only issue with it is that it seems to imply that, if only people had a correct set of beliefs, then the world would be a better place.(I don't think so). I say, so what? You can't believe something that you don't believe just because it would be more convenient for society.

Thanks, Jellybean.

Why do you refer to people who believe in God as people who believe in fantasy. From a logical point of view, I think it is far less logical for someone to believe that we just evolved. To me, I think if you look at the human body and its complexity, the odds of it just happening are so infintisimal, it makes more sense (to me, at least) from a logical point of view, to see that there had to e a Creator, a mastermind behind our creation.

Have a great day!
Shiki

Thanks, Artio:

I saw an interview with William Shatner where he said that because he was an atheist, he was terrified of dying because he believed the lights go out and that is all.

As I am a Christian, we believe we do not die but have everlasting life.

Here's my question: Are atheists terrified of dying?

The name is jeanniebean not jellybean.

In answer to your question: I have asked people who say they believe that God created the world in the manner the Bible tells it, to explain to me how exactly they think he did that. Something that would make a smidgen of sense if even in their wildest imaginations.

I have not gotten even a slightly believable answer.

So I guess in my examination of "the story" it lacks believability.

There is no reason whatever to believe it.

Whoops, sorry about that. I read your name wrong.

"In answer to your question: I have asked people who say they believe that God created the world in the manner the Bible tells it, to explain to me how exactly they think He did that. Something that would make a smidgen of sense if even in their wildest imaginations."

The Bible is very clear about how man and woman were created. It's covered pretty clearly in the Book of Genesis. Actually, there are two creation accounts, which are used to complement each other.

But, I'll give it a try.

Think of God like a human (and we are created in His likeness) and us as ants. Having us try to understand how God functions would be like ants trying to understand us and how we function. That is one reason (of many) of why He took the form of man, so that we could have some kind of link to him.

And that link today is the Bible, for the Bible is the Word, the living Word, and the Word is God.

Hope this helps,
Shiki

Another thing I would like to ask believers in the God story, is why do so many of them assume that if I don't believe their story, that I place all of my belief in the theory of evolution?

It is as if they have only two choices to pick from. Believe in evolution or believe in creation.

Neither one of these so-called "answers" is complete or correct.

It does not help in the slightest. Humans are not ants, they are conscious thinking humans who understand technology and are creating their own creatures with DNA in the labs.

Second, the Bible does not explain the "how" of anything. Saying that God created man from the clay of the earth is not exactly very clear on how that was done.

None of that is the slightest bit believable. And you ask me 'why' I don't believe. That is why. It is either very unclear and incomplete, or simply pure fantasy.

Says who?

What you have just said here makes no sense.

There is absolutely no empirical reason to believe in the God story. There is lots of empirical reason to give the notion of evolution credence. we have seen small examples of it just in our own lifetimes. It's the huge diversity of life forms that seem to cause such incredulity for many people. I think that 3 to 4 billion years probably does provide ample time for genetic mutation and selective breeding to work its magic

It may turn out to be an incorrect theory, but it is the most rational one we have.

The way I see it, if you actually believe that, then you are not speaking "from a logical point of view."

I'm intellectually an agnostic when it comes to considering the possible spiritual essence of the universe. I also believe that all humans are necessarily intellectual agnostics whether they are willing to confess this to themselves or not. Agnostic simply means "without knowledge", and so unless a human wants to claim to have supreme knowledge on this topic, then they must necessarily be without knowledge, and thus they are agnostic.

Intuitively I confess to having feelings and intuitions that lead me to believe that their may very well be a spiritual essence to reality. That of course, does not make it so. I also have intellectual reasons why I feel a spiritual essence to reality is plausible. But in order to maintain total honesty, I must confess (even to myself) that I can come up with equally valid intellectual reasons why spirituality may not be the truth of reality.

So I consider myself to be an intellectual agnostic who leans toward a belief in spirituality on an intuitive level.

Having said all of that, I do not believe that the ancient Hebrew religious folklore, stories, or fables, hold any merit. I could write an entire book as large as the Bible itself containing the reasons why I feel the Biblical cannon has no merit as the word of any supposedly all-wise God.

So from my point of view Christianity as a "verbatim" religion is not even remotely believable to me. Like Artlo, I feel that there is no choice in the matter. The Biblical cannon is so totally unbelievable from my perspective that I would basically need to lie, to pretend that I believed it. So I can't very well, just "accept" that it's true. That would be an absolute pretense.

What kind of a God would even want me to "pretend" to believe in such absurdities?

So Christianity, in that sense, it totally out of the question.

You mentioned in your OP:


Well, I'm neither angry nor insulted by religion. However, if you fail to accept my views and start accusing me of "refusing" to believe, and/or other such nonsense, then naturally I'm going to become angry and insulted by your refusal to accept that my views are valid for me.

I typically find that it's the Christians who get all bent out of shape when I say that, for me, the biblical stories are absurd and hold no merit.

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I also have a unique view of who Jesus was. Obviously I don't accept that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham. But then neither do the Jews and the Christians typically aren't insulted by Judaism.

I personally reject the entire Old Testament as fable having nor more, and no less, merit than Greek Mythology. There may be some spiritual truths and righteous moral values in the mix, but I'm reject the Old Testament as being the "verbatim word of God".

I don't buy into the idea that all men are "sinners" in dire need of repentance. And I don't accept the Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of that God.

Since I don't accept the Jesus was who the Christians claim, then I must offer my own views of who he might have been. In my view Jesus was most likely a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. I realize that this is quite a mouthful and most Christians will not have a clue whey I feel this way, but trust me, I can make a very intellectually solid case for how this could plausibly in fact be the truth.

And in my humble opinion, it makes far more sense then the "sacrificial lamb" story. But I confess that this is my own personal view.

I view the entire New Testament to be either a total misunderstanding of who Jesus was and what he was trying to teach, or an outright blatant attempt to use the rumors of Jesus to create a religion to support the Torah.

I also have reason to believe that Jesus actually renounced the Torah. And ironically those reasons come from the New Testament itself.

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So if there is a spiritual essence to reality, I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with an angry jealous judgmental God who is chomping at the bit to cast most humans into a lake of hell fire.

By the way, if you believe that the Bible is the verbatim word of God, and that all the quotes given to Jesus are true, then you must conclude that this God loses the vast majority of souls that he creates. Because even the gospels have Jesus saying that only FEW will make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. Well, if only FEW make it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that MOST will not.

So the story as stands is not a pretty story, and from my point of view it's a story of a "loser God" (i.e. a Creator who loses the vast majority of souls that it creates).

I don't believe that this would be the essence of spirituality if indeed such a thing exists.

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Thus I turn to Eastern Mysticism for wisdom that makes far more sense to me. In their picture of a "god" or "spirit" no souls are ever lost. Nary a one. So this picture makes far more sense to me.

And like I've said, even the gospel "rumors" (and that's just how I view them) indicate to me that this man named Jesus was actually most likely a Mahayana Buddhist anyway. I don't believe the rhetoric they tell about him being the "only begotten son of God" or that he is the "sacrificial lamb" sent by God to "pay" for our sins.

So for me, if there exists a spiritual essence to life, it's most likely best described by the Eastern Mystical philosophy.

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So now let me answer your question using all three possible scenarios:



First Case - Atheism

If atheism is true and when we die it's just "lights out", then there is nothing to fear in death because you will never even realized or know that you had died. In fact, you won't even know that you had ever lived at that point. You simply won't exist anymore.

There is nothing to 'fear' in that. What could their possible be to fear about something that you won't even know has happened?

So there is no fear in atheism.


Second Case - Christianity

Should we fear death if Christianity is true?

Well that all depends on which sect of Christianity you believe. Some Christians believe in an eternal hell of suffering, others refute the concept of hell.

If hell exists then one might potentially have something to fear in this case. If there is no hell, then all that means is that if you don't believe in this God atheism will be true for you, and there is nothing to fear in atheism as I have already discussed.

The only thing that you might get is some eternal life that is "supposed" to be paradise according to some. But we can't even be sure if it would be paradise. After all, even God's angels where all happy with his heaven according to the myths so clearly it has problems.

I personally would not care to serve the God that is depicted in the Old Testament. For me atheism would seem like a better end to life. I simply don't like the God of the Old Testament to be quite honest about it.

Finally, if we ignore all the technical details and individual beliefs of various Christians and just assume that the Biblical God truly is "righteous", then I feel that I would not have anything to fear from a "righteous" God anyway.

So even if Christianity is true, I would necessarily still have to be a "winner" simply because it would be unrighteous for any God to destroy me on some petty technicality like "I didn't believe in absurd stories"

So I have no fear of any "righteous" God.

The only way I could fear the Christian God is if that God is "unrighteous" but every Christian I have ever met assures me that their God is indeed "righteous".

So why should I fear a righteous God?

Third Case - Mysticism

Well mysticism is indeed a mystery. That's why it's called "Mysticism" The only thing in this case is that we need to have faith that it too is a 'righteous' mystery.

If there exists a spiritual essence to reality I trust that my fate will indeed be righteous. Do I really need to know anything beyond that?

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What Christians seem to be demanding is that if I refuse to agree with their views God will be unrighteous toward me.

I don't buy into the Christians views. It's that simple. They are trying to force God to be an unrighteous entity as far as I'm concerned. And for no other purpose than to push their spiritual views onto me.

So that's my views on atheism, religion, spirituality, and Christianity.

You're never going to convince me to buy into your views of a God who will hate me if I refuse to agree with you. So don't even try.

That's my perspective.

Then neither one of us will need to become angry or insulted.

Just accept that I don't worship your religion and I'm not asking you to worship mine. That should be cool.

I absolutely agree with Jeannie. As far as I'm concerned we indeed came into existence through a process of evolution from lower life forms. In fact life itself evolved from what we call "inanimate" atoms.

Maybe we're wrong about atoms being "inanimate"?

If a spiritual essence exists, it still created the physical universe using a process of evolution.

Spirit and evolution are in no way incompatible concepts.

Besides, if your argument, freakyshiki, is that it's illogical to believe that a universe could just spring into existence from nothing and produce life. Then you must also argue that it's illogical for a God to have just come into being magically from nowhere.

So ultimately you're trying to argue for a an "illogical God" using "logic" as the basis of your argument. That makes no sense already.

If a God exists, that God would need to defy everything that we consider to be "logical".

Well, if God can defy everything we consider to be "logical" then why couldn't the universe itself do the same thing?

Something has to defy logic somewhere along the way, whether it's the universe itself, or a God, doesn't really make much difference does it?

Logic is totally tossed out the window in BOTH cases!

The very concept of a God is an "illogical" concept to begin with.

That's what caused us to create an idea of a God in the first place. We decided that we can't figure it out so there must be an entity who can!

But that very reasoning there is illogical.

In fact, many people expect that when they die God will explain everything to them. Like as if everything must have a logical explanation and God will be able to provide the logical answer.

But where would that stop? Would God need to explain his very own existence in a way that make logical sense?

You're demand that everything must be logical cannot stop with God. If God himself cannot be logically explained, then clearly some things occur that do not have a logical explanation.

But THAT was precisely what you were trying to AVOID.

An illogical ultimate explanation! (i.e. An illogical God did it!)

Unless you're going to demand that God can give a logical explanation for his own essence and being.

There was a time when I was a true atheist, and I looked at dying as a relief.

Just think, you could live a life of crime and corruption doing anything you wanted and death would be the greatest escape. Nobody would be coming after you.

Then, after several spiritual revelations and out of body experiences, I began to believe that... there is existence after leaving the body.

So if that is true, then Karma or causality could probably make you somewhat responsible for your past deeds, following you to the next world or existence.

So that is when I "got spirituality." (Rather than people who suddenly "get religion.")

So, I'm not a pure atheist. In fact when I talk to pure atheists, they view me as someone who lives in a fantasy world.

Yet when I talk to Christians, they tag me with "atheist" simply because I don't walk their walk.

So I'm stuck in the middle. Sort of where Abracadabra is.