A legal Immigrant or American won't mind a little inconvenience to make sure the Illegal is apprehended and our country is secure.

Those who protest are either Illegal or trying to harbor the Illegal.

two arguments come to mind,,,

1."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

and

2. Who determines what is AMERICAN and what americans dont mind? As I recall many AMERICANS are opposd to financial inconvenience to assure that all americans have insurance,,,,yet we are to believe that these same ones dont mind having their time and liberty inconvenienced to apprehend illegal immigrants? seems inconsistent,,,unless of course, the latter is unobjected to because it will probably be someone ELSE being inconvenienced,,,

If you don't like Arizona Law, why not hound Hussein to set ICE loose to uphold Federal Immigration Law?

wow. Talk about 'projection' and 'transference' ... I could make a ton of money using this as a case study ... but yeah, the plane have done left the tarmac (do people even USE that word anymore?) insofar as following the logical breadcrumb trail of what passes for 'thought' in that response ...

It'd be so much easier and direct to just come out straight up and say there's no way in hell you'd ever agree that ANY part of this law will ever be something you can agree with 'cuz you're shilling for the illegals ... this PeeCee stuff is so long 'n drawn out and ultimately accomplishes nothing. One more attempt to defend the indefensible - again ...

I have already written OBama concerning immigration laws,, Im sure he is busy with other things though,,,

what indefensible thing are you speaking of? I think there are some (intentional?) reading comprehension issues going on.

I have posted ( I think , three times now) that I would agree with the bill if it was applied to those STOPPED in the process of committing some violation.

I oppose the bill that makes 'suspicion' of not being documented the whole grounds for being stopped.

Mexican is not a race. Mexican is a nationality.

Hispanic is a subset of the white race. Just like Norwegian or Italian

Like I stated earlier.
All they have to do is set up DL, and insurance checkpoints.

You are so damn dense to ask me this! I could take you down the street here and point most of them out on sight! I bet in just talking to them you wouldn't know the difference between a Guatamalan and a Mexican. I can take you places where they hang out looking for work like the local Home Depots here. They don't speak any English? Gee, think they were born here? Every single immigrant I knew looking to legalize speaks some English at least.

How big of a bite do you think getting rid of the illegals would take out of gang violence alone?

Oh but "we are going to loose our liberty over this!" Get over yourself! Your Paladin sensationalism is not making any point here with you and Dragoness constantly trying to defend your positions with fallacious and biased logic and ad hominum attacks! Your attitudes are typical of snow blind liberals! So what I could care less if I have to show ID. I have nothing to fear and I am here legitimately. I am so sick and tired of people like you disenfranchising whites over the need to make your geo political sensitivities feel good! Why not admit you are a globalist and get it over with!

In today's world open boarders is not sane, reasonable, or logical! Why not try a dose of personal responsibility before shoving the R word down all our throats? Personal accountability is what 90% of humanity and this world lacks!

wow,, first of all, I am nowhere near dense,,but the condescending attitudes of imagined inteillectual superiority in these threads is nothing new so I will move on,,,


second of all, IF you are suggesting that loitering be cause for suspicion,, I agree( as loitering would be the OFFENSE for which they were being stopped and STATUS would be secondary), it would also be easy to prove if such a practice was being performed unilaterally as those who 'dont speak english' arent the only ones currently in this country loitering around businesses asking for work OR straight out asking for money

third of all, I am actually a fairly humble person with no need to get over myself, which is a strange thing to hear from anyone so seemingly impressed with their own experiences to the point of refusing to aknowledge or care about anyone elses

fourth of all, although I respect Dragoness( as I hope she does me) we are two separate people, completely capable of speaking for ourself, and we disagree as often as we agree but good luck with the attempt at a DUAL insult by lumping folks together(although that explains your view of illegal immigration)


fifth of all, I am not the one who constantly mentions this 'whiteness'. I am , however, one who believes in admitting and confronting racial injustices or unequal racial practices. For whites to be disenfranchised in america would take QUITE a feat but is nothing I favor anymore than I do making mexican americans second or any other non white americans,, second class citizens.

sixth of all, speaking of fallacious arguments. why is it an assumption that WHITES are the only americans? IF I am correct, illegal immigration is affecting ALL shades of americans.

seventh of all, I have not personally shoved any R word down anyones throat as the name calling is actually something that gets on MY nerves...

and lastly, your last sentence is the ONLY one in your entire post that I agree with and dont find offensive,,,I do not support open borders and I do think people need to be personally responsible

Oh Yeah! Now we are getting somewhere!

Let me be ABUNDANTLY clear on this point. Just because I am "white" per say does not make me a "Caucasian" or Lilly White! I am 1/2 Italian, 1/4 Sicilian, and 1/4 Irish! I am not Anglo, I am not English. I am Mediterranean and Celtic by heritage and in all reality a MUTT! I have more in common with a Chocolate Chip Cookie more than I do a "white" sugar cookie! I come from a heritage of "White people" who were oppressed by our own color! So do please get over yourself finally about this whole "Racial sensitivity" crap and me being racist and hate full and all of that name calling drivel! I am mad the rest of the nation hasn't gotten the nuggets to kick out the illegals wholesale! I am mad at all of the hypocrisy! I am mad at how people like Dragoness employ such cheap tactics to try to express their view points here and in the media! I want MY God damn country back! I want it back from Globalists, big business, fear, and the WHOLE FUQUING "MINORITY" COMPLEX! WE are supposed to be Americans. Not Afro Americans, Mexican Americans or anything else for that matter. If Afro Americans have a problem living here then find it on the map and move there because I sure can't find it on any map I look at!

Dragoness had fallen back multiple times on the whole "If you are against illegal immigrants you are racist!" line. That would be the exact same thing as me saying if you are for illegal immigration you are committing treason! Don't toss the fallacy of equating or the host of other fallacious arguments and tactics around and not expect to get called on them. You are entitled to your opinions but both of you have in your case passively attacked people and in dragonesses case actively attacked people. If you are going to make a point do so with a better reason than "It is just because I say so."

I don't hate or dislike you but I can argue with the best of them. I grew up in a black neighborhood for Christ sake! Where was my advocacy when six stone cold off of the street "blacks" (I wanted to use a word I am more accustom to using in this situation but lets not and say I did, OK?) start coming off on me and smackn' me around out of the blue cause I was a lone white boy in a black neighborhood? When it is six whites on on e black man it is a hate crime but when it is six blacks on a white guy half their size they are "misunderstood." Do us a favor and stop blowing this race crap up our skirts. Have you ever Visited Los Angeles or New York? How about lived there? There is NOWHERE in Ohio that is anything like CA or NY. I could take you to Hispanic neighborhoods where if I dumped you from the car you would be LUCKY to get out unharmed AT ALL! Hell, there are neighborhoods here I will not go without a gun on me and that is for MY OWN protection.

I think the biblical phrase for this is stop speaking of the mote in my eye until you remove the log from yours!

And as to me having a condescending attitude? Look in the mirror. I am not condescending. I am angry hearing this Liberal spew constantly here, in the media, from idiots without enough education or street experience to even be opening their mouths in the first place. It has been "Heart felt" viewpoints, attitudes and idealism that have occluded the facts and the problems we need to face.

You cannot solve this problem with writing more laws. You cannot solve racism unless enforcement is uniform and WHITES, BLACKS, YELLOWS, REDS, PURPLES, AND GOLDS have no reason to fear one another because of someone promoting biased policies to favor one brother over the other. Don't you think the policies like AA didn't make a lot of whites fear reverse discrimination for unjust reasons? I had to live in that nightmare. We have to suppress one sector of our population to give another a chance?

What a load of Horse SH**! What the FUQUE do we have public education for? If you are too stupid to succeed you won't. If you are uneducated you won't. If you are unmotivated you won't. All you want to do is make the people who do succeed and those getting there to support those who can't. Well now let us look to personal accountability. I bust my azz to make something of myself yet some scumbag from say Antarctica (this way none of you liberally minded folks have any ammunition to accuse me of being racist again!) illegally comes here for free health care, free this and free that while I got to earn money to pay rent and bills and feed myself? They don't work but I do and yet the government hands them money twice a month. So when I do succeed I got to give up my dreams of owning a boat and home to someone who gets one handed to them for free?

This is the bigger picture you do not see. You refuse to see it. You are so snow blinded by humanitarianism that you cant see the damage we are suffering for it! We allow people like David Duke (HE IS WHITE BY THE WAY) Lewis Farrakahn, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and a host of other racists and bigots spew their hate and filth and then you jump on the band wagon and start saying enforcing immigration laws is racist! And you want me to believe you are credible? Your opinion and Attitude are part of the whole problem!

Unless the cops challenge people to show ID they can't do their job. QUIT TRYING TO TIE THEIR HANDS BEHIND THEIR BACKS AGAIN! THEY HAVE A HARD JOB TO DO! We hate cops yet they do protect us most of the time from ourselves! The way you want to handle it is going to lead to Vigilantiism and a repeat of San Francisco in the early 1800s when people got tired of the police corruption and crime and the people banded up and did something about it. Is that what you really want? Bands of Americans of any color getting pissed off enough to go to neighborhoods full of Hispanics and then slaughter them and burn the neighborhood down? Do you want things to degenerate to Anarchy when the police can't act?

Yeah, I'm condescending...

I just heard the pope is converting to Protestantism today too!

getting where exactly? Whatever issue you have with dragoness, you should really take up with her,,,,its not my problem nor concern nor does it have anything to do with what my point was in this thread

Wherever you lived, or whatever the color of your neighbors,, SO WHAT!
It also has nothing to do with my point in this thread.


You were a victim of an interracial crime,,,? Join the club..
I have been assaulted TWICE in my life by white males. I happen to think most violent crimes against others pretty hateful and am no supporter of hate crime laws.....


If you want to change hate crime laws,, get involved in the political process and work towards that goal.


My point in this thread, which I believe your blind disappointment/hatred causes you to continue to miss is that I dont AGREE with passing any bill that is so vague as to not define the REASONS for status to be checked. I am all for checking the status of loiterers. I am ALL for checking status of someone driving in a car IF they have been stopped for some violation of if there is a RANDOM car search instituted. I am all for status checks AFTER an initial violation has occurred.

I am NOT for giving cops (most of whom are positive great people but some of whom are secretly harboring the types of sentiments you are about being somehow shafted for being white) legal grounds to stop and search people 'just because'. There just needs to be clearer detail about when and how such searches will be carried out. Why that seems such a complicated or divisive sentiment,, is beyond me.

Anytime there is an attempt to enforce Immigration Law, the c0ckroaches will come out of the cracks and holler racism, profiling and discrimination.

I hope those folks remember, harboring, transporting, housing, employing, aiding or abetting an Illegal is supposed to be a Federal felony. If Arizona catches Illegals in a vehicle owned by a citizen, the citizen could face prison time and/or a fine along with their vehicle confiscated.

If an Illegal is caught in a vehicle belonging to a Legal resident, the above could apply along with revocation of their permission to reside and work here. They can be deported along with the Illegal.

lol at cockroaches,,,does it ever stop,,,


anyway, I agree current laws need to be ENFORCED , I agree with all the above proposals and would love to see them happen. I disagree with any NEW bill IF (as I have not seen the bill personally and only read REPORTS on what it says, I repeatedly post this sentiment as an IF, THEN situation) it allows open season on people based upon how they 'look'. IF the bill supports profiling without reasonable cause, I dont support it. If the bill supports enforcing CURRENT laws, I totally support it.

There are many ways Arizona can check for legal residency without profiling. I'm sure Law enforcement knows how to do it without risking lawsuits.

If they were to put Sheriff Joe in charge, I would almost guarantee he'd get it done Legally.

wonderful, as long as its legal without PROFILING,,

I will LOVE to see them do it, and the rest of the country.

There is a terrible amount of people who feel the answer to everything is to write laws in the black and white (no metaphor to race or anything else). Unfortunately with the current Justices we have that no matter how black and white anyone writes a law Someone out there has to redefine it.

Laws really should be written in the gray in a lot of ways. There is the spirit of the law and the intent in the law. To micromanage within the law is stupid and senseless. It makes the laws we got way too confusing like they are now. Most of us "common" people outside the venue of the justice system see things in broader terms. It would be Ludicrous to write laws that say "Chase out illegal immigrants but you can't just walk up to them and ask them for ID," is insane and counter productive.

Unfortunately profiling is totally part of this picture for the moment. It works first of all for as unfortunate as it may be. Arizona has a problem with a predominate number of illegal Mexicans. They are going to focus on that sector of their population. What they will not do is go door to door. That is legal in the search of known fugitives and there are strict guidelines for the use of intrusive measures and addressing the community at large. They cannot use that as an excuse to just haul people off. Criminals that cops are chasing after could potentially lead them to a lot of bank shot captures. That may be unfortunate for people who have a fugitive living among them but again if they are here illegally and they get caught, Bye Bye!

Where profiling is wrong is say the police pulling over nothing but Black drivers for all minor traffic violations hoping to make a drug bust. Profiling is also applicable say in this instance, A car driving through Louisianan has California license plates. Well, sad but true, that car's chances of getting pulled over is 100% no matter how legally you are driving because they assume all cars from California are carrying drugs of some kind.

One place where profiling fits is dealing with Gangs. They tend to dress alike and they usually have tattoos identifying what sect they belong to. Most gang members tend to polarize racially. In all reality as long as they are not going arbitrarily door to door I think that is actually a protection of the constitution against illegal search and seizure. Now if neighbors complain about twenty cars in the front lawn, violence and the house always has fifteen to twenty people living there when it is a single family dwelling then the police get to act. They will do DL check points. They can demand to see a businesses employees records. If pressed they will get a warrant for that. The Arizona police are not stupid. They know what they can and cannot do. It isn't like they are completely unrestrained.

That would be something to fear!

The AZ law shows racism and ignorancy.

Allowing racial profiling and racism is a travesty to this country.

The feds need to step in or the supreme court or something to stop the racist from taking this country back.

You sure are filled with hate!