but, but , but,, if they are undocumented,, how does one get an ACCURATE percentage of how many are mexican? and what percent of the mexicans are illegal? Should legal immigrants be treated as suspects , guilty until proven innocent, because of the immigration numbers? if so,,, what other crimes should be handled with profiling by using correlation as causation?

I really hope you guys hug it out when this thing is over.

I gotta listen to you guys fight every night.

I'm trying to get some sleep.

sorry, I will try to use my inside voice,,,

The problem is that law enforcement is being equated to racism and that is completely unfair and biased as well. How does on avoid tabulating some kind of Quota? People are getting completely stupid over semantics! So I am a racist because I am sick and tired of all the illegals breaking our laws and yet I have to abide by them?

Now suddenly the slippery slope rears its ugly head again? Suddenly all crimes will be correlated to all illegal aliens suddenly? OMG that is so dense! Crime is crime and there is no comparison. the only thing I would be worried about is a down turn in the amount of crime we have to deal with domestically. If the numbers do indeed correlate with Illegal Immigration then OMG again! Maybe we should have been acting on racial profiling all along! It does not matter in the long run. A criminal is a criminal period! I don't care what country they come from and I sure don't care if they have noble reasons to be here. Be here legally or pack up and go home!

Fuque all illegal aliens of all races! Get legal or get out! Period! Nuff said! It is tiring hearing all the "feel's good" rhetoric when I am enduring poverty and then getting told we got to save others from themselves. Sorry but if I give up the one bucket I got to bail my boat out to keep it from sinking to someone else well, their fuqued. They can sink for all I care. If they can't fix the leaks in their own boat they should not have gotten into the water!

Racial profiling... God how shallow! Why is it humanitarians cannot see past their own ideologies to see that illegal immigration has a lot of problems associated with it? China is having serious problems right now thanks to a sudden exedous of North Koreans fleeing their country! How is China handling it? DEPORTATION! And they have NO sympathy at all the way they do it!

Goodnight everyone and hugs until tomorrow!

racial profiling is shallow,,,we agree


stop people when they fit a SPECIFIC description of a SPECIFIC suspect,,,yes


stop people who fall into the general category of some generalized crime graphic,,,no

Not the point. Shallow is the people equating this law to racism. Shallow is calling immigration enforcement profiling! Get over yourselves!



Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it is a duck. If a negro man pulls a gun and robs a liquor store then you look for a black man matching the description but some people have a hard time telling one negro man from another. Hell, I have been told by a black man before all us whites looked the same to him. In this case you pull over every black man loosely fitting the description until you find the right one. That is police procedure. If you live in a state where you border Mexico and illegal immigration is a problem there well just maybe since the bulk of illegal immigrants is Hispanic then they get targeted. Unfair? NOT! That is just how it is. If the demographic fits the criminal you hunt within that racial demographic. Again get over yourselves!



Again this argument falls back to the previous statement you made and contradicts it! Stop playing these cyclical arguments on us! it is just an excuse to belittle Arizona under the guise of racial equality. This is not about racial equality! It is about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. That means people who have NO LEGAL BUSINESS OR REASON TO BE HERE! Who gives a fuque about what race or color they are? if they are here ILLEGALLY then they are breaking the law, period.


Now to clarify my political stance. I revile the political party system! It has been a slow burning failure. I am a centrist. That means if a policy does not meet the needs of America GLOBALLY (as in America as a whole) then it does not belong. Laws to protect specific racial demographic are wrong! ALL Americans should have equal treatment under the law irregardless of race color or creed but in the same breath writing laws to specifically protect certain individual races is stupid, counter productive, and wrong! What we need is universal enforcement of common sense and not writing a host of stupid laws!

Now for illegal aliens! They are not citizens. They are breaking the law. They bring nothing to the table other than cheap labor. You same liberally minded people whine about Americans earning a living wage here? That is FUQUING IMPOSSIBLE WHEN ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE UNDERCUTTING THE COST OF DOMESTIC LABOR GETTING PAID UNDER THE TABLE AND DEPRIVING AMERICA OF TAX REVENUE SINCE THEY DON'T PAY TAXES WHILE THE REST OF US LEGAL CITIZENS DO! I work in construction. I have seen and lived this problem FIRST HAND! In my need for money I started taking on jobs I knew were a little bit above the legal limits of handyman work. I bid a job under legal contractors and illegal immigrants come along and under cut me! Then I loose out on another job I was undercutting a legal contractor over! And I am getting robbed of a job I know if I get caught on I will get in trouble. You people are living in a glass tower on top of a pedestal.

Again get over yourselves.


Dare I need to begin to unravel the fallacies of your arguments too?

Let me start by citing the fallacy of repetition and appealing to the masses!

You act like you have the answer to the problem and your answer is Amnesty. Talk about Deaf Dumb and Blind!

This is what I see in Liberals!

I do not support amnesty.


as to the rest,, as I said before

top people when they fit a SPECIFIC description of a SPECIFIC suspect,,,yes


stop people who fall into the general category of some generalized crime graphic,,,no


these do not contradict each other,, example

IF a black man(specifically) robs a bank(specifically) and there is a description other than that he is black,, like that he is wearing a jogging suit or he is six four,,, than to stop 6 foot 4 black men in the area in jogging suits is REASONABLE

If a certain area has a predominate number of black males committing the armed robberies,, it would not be reasonable to SUSPECT any and every black male.... that is TOO general a graphic and an uneffective use of profiling...


My objection to the bill is it does not define what things would be considered reasonable suspicion of illegal immigration and would therefore leave the door WIDE open for immigrants who are asthetically noticable of who have accents to be stopped and searched (As if they may be criminals)...which is a civil atrocity

Let's be honest ... there's NOTHING that could be done to make you like this bill. Just say it. That at least has the benefit of honesty and not the mincing 'dance around the maypole' PeeCee waltz that's being done.

This is NOT 'racial profiling'. This is CRIMINAL profiling. If they're in the country illegally, they are a CRIMINAL. That's what people who break LAWS are called. There's no " ... as if they may be criminals ... " - they ARE criminals. End of story. The law is justified.

All of these people playing with the " racism " deck...do us all a favor...

SHOW us exactly where, in that bill, ANY PARTICULAR RACE is singled out.

All I see in that bill is that the police will be able to check the immigration status of ANYONE.

Mexicans are not singled out. Therefore, your claims of racism or profiling are hollow rhetoric.

you are so obviously missing the point,,,,I am against amnesty,, being here without documentation is and should be illegal...

NOW, with that out the way,, the bill has been posted two different ways on this thread,, one states that officers must STOP anyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant


the other one states that officers must CHECK status of anyone they stop



the latter, I have no issue with,, I am sure there will have to be some LEGAL Ground for them to stop someone and then ANYONE stopped can have status checked


the former, where someone is expected to SUSPECT illegal documentation off the cuff and allow that to be the REASON for stopping someone,, I disagree with

because

I can think of very few situations where it would be REASONABLE to just assume someone passing by is an illegal immigrant ,,,

this does not pertain to stopping people in vehicles, in which case ID is often and regularly requested,,,but this bill doesnt state specifically anything about TRAFFIC violations or any illegal activity to INITIATE such a request,, as written in the FIRST description of the bill, leaves room for people to be stopped for strictcly asthetic reasons and is therefore, in my opinion, unjust and unreasonable

The old 'arrested for driving while (insert race, gender, species, etc qualifier here)' argument doesn't work. They're STILL criminals and subject to stop and search. Which part of 'illegal' is difficult to comprehend?

laws dont have to single out race for them to promote and support racism,,,

there were once signs all over the usa that read 'we reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE'

it translated, basically, to refusing minorities...(even though it didnt specifically state it on the signs)

dude, what are you even talking about,,,is someone else posting on the board that I dont see,,,,?

I do see MsHarmony's point here dude.

Think about it for a second.

What she is saying is that there is a lot of room in that bill for abuses by the police to occur.

What about the law abiding LEGAL Mexican folks who have done nothing wrong?? Think none of the will ever be " suspected " of being illegal??

Ummm..there are still LOTS of those signs around.

Sorry ... I thought you may have remembered your own post ...

" ... this does not pertain to stopping people in vehicles, in which case ID is often and regularly requested,,,but this bill doesnt state specifically anything about TRAFFIC violations or any illegal activity to INITIATE such a request,, as written in the FIRST description of the bill, leaves room for people to be stopped for strictcly asthetic reasons and is therefore, in my opinion, unjust and unreasonable ... "

Could there be instances where people MAY be stopped in error? Yes. Are there instances NOW, under OTHER laws, where people are stopped in error? Yes. Your point IS ... ? They always retain the option to go home voluntarily.

the plane has left the tarmac,,

please reread 'this DOES NOT pertain to stopping people in vehicles"

,, I didnt use any 'arrested for driving (black is probably what you were looking for)" argument at all


my point is,, it would be easy to unjustly apply such a law to one ASTHETIC group of people if there is nothing qualifying the type of activity which would warrant 'suspicion' of illegal immigration

Robbery is a specific crime and pertaining to a single individual or group like a gang.

Illegal Immigration is a broader problem in that you are dealing with thousands (millions!!!) of people composing the problem. in Arizona it is a lot of Hispanics. There for the moment they target Hispanics. In New York Take your pick! Haitians? Dominicans? They are black! How can you tell the difference from an American Black? ACCENT! My Trinidadian friend speaks English and he is here legally! He has a THICK island accent people mistake for Jamaican! So now we weed out about half of the blacks there. Now we get down and dirty. Do they have papers? My friend has his. He doesn't complain about having to carry them. So if NY has a problem with more Haitians and others of the Caribbean Nations is it wrong to profile them? Hell no!

Again rule of hunting number one! If you are hunting deer know what a deer looks like before you pick up your rifle!

If the illegals fit an aesthetic demographic you work among that aesthetic demographic! Once all illegal aliens get the point to get legal or get out they will shape up or ship out. Period. You can argue the finer details until the cows come home. It does not make your world outlook on this any better than mine or anyone else's outlook. The fact is if we need to hunt down Hispanics in Arizona first then we focus on them. Then we focus on others later. There is no excuse for not trying and no excuse for laziness! We need to act on our laws! We need to secure our boarders. We cannot let criminals take over. It is time to stop tying back Law enforcements hands with hugs and rainbows!

You have tried to argue that people are going to use statistics to back their reasoning to hunt down Illegal Hispanics wholesale. News Flash! They ALREADY done the statistics based on police crime statistics. Why do you think Arizona State is so pissed off? John McCain just wants to piss off Congress? Come on!

Again rule of hunting number one! If you are hunting deer know what a deer looks like before you pick up your rifle! ....


what does an illegal immigrant 'look like'?