Though I dont agree the old testament should be burned anymore than any other history book that contains unpleasant parts of human history,,, I do agree more should stick by the Example and words of Jesus and the actions of God, first and foremost. HE did teach adherance to certain standards of conduct but he did not teach hatred of people. IN respect to gays or muslims, I would say Jesus preached against all types of fornication and against violence(not that muslims correlate to violence but I know that is how many see it).

edited for brevity



Actually - let's look at history.

In the first Century, christians were Jews only. Catholicism did not even exist. Saul was not yet Paul, and here were no "christians" even in Rome yet. So - how did they know what a Christian was - if Catholicism didn't even exist, and you couldn't become a Christian unless you were Jewish?

Since you're intimating that I don't even know how to recognize my own beliefs outside of historical fact - provide me with some. I'd rather you educate me on this rather than ridicule me, since you're the expert.

BDSM led to a Holocaust? Ms harmony are you serious with this? And what's wrong with BDSM between consentual adults? How is BDSM a "tactic"....are they recruiting? Not me, I hate pain....

BDSM is a sex act usually between consenting individuals...so I take it your book has limitations on sexual choices...I see.

The thread is not really pecific to Chrisianity, it's about any religious extremism when it comes to the violence and ignorances that relgion embraces...and who is saying you don't know your own beliefs? If anything I assume you have some things to deny about it tho~..lol...I take it you voted for the Dippic twice and think Sarah Palin is sane...now THAT'S extreme.

I never said BDSM lead to a holocaust, anymore than someone could logically say my belief in the bible or in God lead to a holocaust, or that I should therefore feel responsible. People CHOOSE their actions individually, they can blame the outcome on whatever they wish, but it still will not make it the cause. I guess I believe in a self accountability that negates the notion that peoples actions can be blamed on any thing or anyone other than themself.

My BIG BOOK says "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets " , if some are diluted enough to believe this encourags or promotes something like the HOLOCAUST,, the problem is in their brain, not in the book.

While your original post was about extreme religious extremism - your subsequent posts have only refered to Christianity - and not even on an extremist level. You speak of mere christianity as though it were a disease - yet you can't even define what a christian is. So - why did you bother to start this thread?

Eljay,

You obsessively insist with this 'trick' question of yours.

It becomes clear with this insistence of yours, that you insinuate that there is a definitive 'RIGHT CHRISTIAN' !!! Characterized by (surprise of all surprises) YOUR OPINION, BELIEF, DOGMA, DEFINITION!!! Of course you're going to tell us that it isn't yours, but rather that of a number of other 'personal' individuals whom over the history of christianity have given their particular PERSONAL opinion, belief, dogma of what they consider to be 'the ultimate definition' of chrisitianity, or what it is to be the 'RIGHT KIND OF CHRISTIAN'.

So here is a half answer/question to you Eljay:

OF THE VAST NUMBER OF DEFINITIONS OUT THERE, WHOSE PERSONAL OPINION, BELIEF, DOGMA, INTERPRETATION, AND DEFINITION
OF CHRISTIANITY HAVE YOU ADOPTED AS YOUR OWN, AND WHICH YOU INSINUATE IS 'SUPERIOR' TO ALL OTHERS???

Catholicism
Western Schism
East-West Schism
Protestant Reformation
Theology of Martin Luther
Theology of Ulrich Zwingli
Theology of John Calvin
English Reformation (under HenryVIII, what emerged was a state church that considered itself both "Reformed" and "Catholic" but not "Roman" (and stayed away from the title "Protestant")

Counter-Reformation
The Council of Trent
Revivalism
Restorationism
Modern Eastern Orthodoxy
Liberal Christianity
Christian Fundamentalism
Ecumenism (Catholic or Protestant???)

This represents just a short list of all the different 'individual' currents of ideology and dogma of the same christian family.

To exclude catholics as christian, or catholicism from christianity, is a gross sign of denial, hypocracy or ignorance. It is more often than not the school of thought of christian fundamentalists.

Lastly, you raise in your previous post, the point about addressing 'chrisitian fundamentalism/extrmism', as though we shouldn't, or as though it were unfair?!?!?

Well Eljay, it has to do with owning up!!! Being responsible!!! Very distinct from being guilty, as some might think, being responsible of our 'own' thought/word/action paradigms is an essential part of 'INTEGRITY'.

As long as we are dealing with this 'FUNAMENTALIST/EXTREMISM issue from our own North American, USA, mostly CULTURALLY christian mentality, 'CHRISTIAN fundamentalism/extremism' is the only religious fundamentalism which concerns us. It is (our) North American extremism, which most directly and organically correlates with other fundamentalist/extremisms around the globe.

To keep denying that essential fact is to participate actively in the perpetuation of divisive, violent, and extreme hating of others, our so-called neighbors, whom Jesus only asked to '... love thy neighbor as you would yourself...'

So which 'individual' definition of christian do you subscribe to Eljay???

I started this thread in hopes that extremists will try to get help with their affliction. It just so happens that I live in a country full of Christian extremists, many of them deny they are extremists and just live day to day as part of the problem.

We need to evolve past what is damaging humanity.

Lets tackle hate, violence, greed, laziness, selfishness,,,etc....

these are parts of the 'human condition' that diminish our potential.

Let us not assign responsibility for these traits to any one religion or philosophy.

msharmony,

I suggest you confuse responsibility with guilt.

We must take responsibility for that which we claim to be a participant.

We can't be for peace, and condone the actions (through the 'not me' syndrome) of those around us, family, country, churches, religious groups, communities, whom engage in violence.

Taking responsibility is a precondition to integrity, whether spiritual, religious, social, political, or PERSONAL!!!

In our case, it is taking responsibility for our own brand of religious fundamentalism and extremism, and that is the 'christian' brand.

I am a 'CULTURAL' christian, not the believing in the dogma kind. I was born in the judeo-christian culture, and have inherited its mentality, way of thinking, and 'general' view or perspective on life.
I take responsibility for 'our' north american brand of christian fundamentalism/extremism 'virus'. I do so by acknowledging that we are not any 'cleaner', or better than any other groups around the globe, in spite of our delusional claims of superiority.

That is what 'taking responsibility' involves. Very distinct from guilt. Not making the distinction, makes one part of the problem rather than striving for a solution!

Ok, we can agree to disagree. Because I am an american, I dont believe I should take responsbility for all the different ways other americans choose to live or all the other interpretations people have of what american is. Similarly, because I am a Christian, I dont feel responsible for the choices of other Christians either.

I do feel , as a human being, I am not better or worse than any other human being and I feel that as HUMANS we should work on the HUMAN conditions which cause the decline of communities and cultures.

But yet since all religions are human created they all suffer the same ailments in their doctrines and conditions.

Yes, all belief systems have the same flaw, humankind. A flaw that would be there regardless of the label given to the belief system.

You get it.

So because they are human created they are full of hate, violence, greed, laziness, selfishness, ,etc....

The part that makes them dangerous is they do not believe they have this problem because they cannot see it in themselves.

IT is sad that any humans cant see human flaws in others or themself. A big part of my faith requires SELF accountability, this is a part that many people fail or refuse to see,, however.

msharmony,

If I didn't know better I would accuse you prestidigitation!!!

A form of willful deceit, a cousin of 'illusionism', used in magic tricks, fast talking, or simple everyday stubborn attitude.

Of course I wouldn't dare suggest that you would willfully take part in any of that yourself.

But when you refuse to acknowledge the concept 'taking responsibility' and yet come back with 'self-accountability', I get flashes of fast talking, avoidance, and deceit.

One's faith or religion does not offer a license to avoid certain facts and reinvent them to suit our convenient dogmas!!!

Self-Accountability is 'ONE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY'!!!

The concept of 'self accountability' doesn't exist without being accountable to others. You are accountable to self only to the extent that you must be accountable to others, and we ought to all be accountable to each other. Anything else is back to barbaric rule of each man/woman for him/herself.

Voile wrote:



Qouted For Truth...

Self Accountability is taking accountability for the actions of SELF (towards others) but not being accountable for someone elses choices.

How can I be held accountable for the actions of my neighbor or my classmate or my workmate or my fellow parishioner? This is not fast talk, its just a simple truth.

You are dreaming and delisional if you think that for one second God or Jesus accepted sin and embrased it.You will not find a single verse in the bible where Jesus or God said it is acceptable to accept or embrase sin.The whole bible speaks against sin and sinful people and how we should reject sin and sinful people.If a person is a sinner and wants to redeem his soul by confessing them to God he should do so and sin no more(as Jesus has said).A homosexual who not only does not want to repent of his or her sins but in the case of gay marriage makes a lifelong commitment before God to disobey Gods words and sin with out stopping or repenting is someone we should avoid.He or she is not living a Christian lifestyle or are they obeying Gods word.They are doing the opposite.



Revelation 3:16

So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time, 'and shall begin to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and shall cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; weeping shall be there and the gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:48-51)


John wrote, "Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:15-17). The lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, these are the enemies of the gospel, the enemies of truth, and the stumbling blocks to salvation. Where pride leads sin follows.


Pastors who perform illegal "same-sex" sodomite marriages should be prosecuted to the full extent of Church law, not only for their ecclesial disobedience, but because they are not truly part of the Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, Matthew 7:20-23 - "Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'" Jesus said, John 14:15, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."


The true nature of the Church is that it is exclusive – it is only for those who know and love Jesus (John 10:26-27; John 14:6). The Church is closed in the sense that sin is not welcome within (Ephesians 5:11). Christ and His Church extend Christ’s welcome to all persons, but Christ and His Church do not approve of all things (Galatians 3:3; Revelation 3:16). Jesus said, Matthew 22:14 - "Many are called, but few are chosen." Sin is not to be accepted by Christ or the Church. Homosexual behavior, sodomy, is sin. Sinners who come to the Church must stop sinning to remain part of Christ’s true Church (Romans 6:1; 1 Timothy 5:20). This is not to say there is no sin after being saved; but there must be repentance following sin

Matthew 18:15-17 (English Standard Version)

If Your Brother Sins Against You
15(A) "If your brother sins against you,(B) go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have(C) gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established(D) by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them,(E) tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church,(F) let him be to you as(G) a Gentile and a tax collector.



In Matthew 5:17, we read:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished - Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

One final thought...


“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

“Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?

"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.

"Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." (Ezekiel 18:20-32)