Ms. Harmony, is that in direct response to the quoted text? I think I missed your point. You are saying a muslim who prays to mary might not a true muslim, so a christian who murders an abortion doctor might not a true christian? Is that what you are saying?

If so, I think that brings us back to what Eljay was saying, and we progress again through what Voileazur and I were saying.

I understand most Christians would experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance here... but I do hope most of you carefully dissect Thomas' words, if only privately,, and consider the implications of them.



Awww, man....you won't even comment on Thomas? He seems like a very sincere Christian to me.

I know there are many Christians who agree, and who truly take these words to heart, truly understand and live by them.

I think there are others who would say these words, but there real feelings sometimes reflect a confusion between 'hating the sin' and 'hating the sinner'.

I agree.. this is a sad condition with many professing christianity. That we are all equal BECAUSE we are all sinners, is the message of christianity ,,and yes we are to deter and be deterred from sinning but we are not to hate people because they sin.

Since 'thomas' won't answer the straight 'on topic' question I asked him, I ask everyone else visiting this thread:

When 'thomas' speaks of the 'WE', as in

'... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destroy our religion. ...',

If you are reading this post, ARE YOU part of the '... 'WE' don't like the gays and the Muslims...'???

And if you are part of the 'WE', ... to what extent are you prepared to go to defend this delusional and totally 'FABRICATED' insurrection against YOUR RELIGION???

This is what this thread is about. Reflecting upon where we stand; our position, with respect to a very real phenomenon of christian fundamentalism and religious extremism taking place in OUR OWN SOCIAL AND POLITICAL BACKYARDS.

Are 'WE' blindly for some, and consciously for others allowing our very own 'christian Ayatollahs', to slowly and deceivingly introduce fear of others, intolerance, hatred, and a crusade like war against the 'fabricated' enemy???
- Kicking out of our schools the science that doesn't agree with our dogma!
- Targeting and discriminating against specific groups of our society as 'CORRUPTORS' and 'DESTROYERS' of a christian fundamentalist religious way of life?

Recommended reading: '... The Family, The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, by Jeff Sharlet.

The book exposed the christian right fundamentalist 'Family', and reveals its far-reaching impact on democracy. No future reckoning of American fundamentalism will be able to ignore it.

" Sharlet knows what he's talking about. He writes:
'Our refusal to recognize the theocratic strand running throughout American history is as self-deceiving as fundamentalism's insistence that the United States was created a Christian nation.' Those who want to be un-deceived (and wildly entertained) must read this disturbing tour de force."

--Frank Schaeffer, author of Crazy For God: How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back.

Again the question:

When 'thomas' speaks of the 'WE', as in

'... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destroy our religion. ...',

If you are reading this post, ARE YOU part of the '... 'WE' don't like the gays and the Muslims...'???

And if you are part of the 'WE', to what extent are you prepsred to go to defend this delusional and totally 'FABRICATED' insurrection against YOUR RELIGION???

Thomas is one person, I dont know the WE he speaks of and , no , I am not part of it.

What one can do besides disagree with hatred(whether it be from a religious or non religious person)? What is this STAND that those of faith are expected to take about individuals who suffer from hatred?
Do the non religious take this STAND with non religious individuals who hate?

The simple answer to your question 'what can we do?' :

DENOUNCE HATRED, in all its hypocritical or outright first degree manifestations.

With respect to your closing statement/question,

'...Do the non-religious take this STAND...?'

Who cares about religious or non-religious nuances!!! Denounce ALL HATERS AND DISCRIMINATORS!!! Did Jesus ask himself these kinds of questions when faced with acts of filled with prejudice and hatred???

Respectfully and without turning it into a personal attack against 'thomas', I denounce the hatred that is expressed in his comments.

As 'thomas' might say himself, 'I don't judge him, for all I know, he's probably a good man with a good heart, but I sure as heck do not agree with, and strongly denounce the hatred laced and profoundly divisive nature of his words, leading to some hate consistent actions which he shared with us, where the focus becomes 'voting agaisnt' vs 'voting for'!!!

Intolerance and hatred invites more intolerance and hatred. I don't recall Jesus ever promoting or teaching these barbaric instincts. But I am confident, if I made the effort of looking it up in th bible, I would find several examples of Jesus DENOUNCING intolerance and hatred. VERY CONFIDENT!

The USA is a secular nation, assuring the right of practice of any faith or religion of choice, and the equal right of not practicing any faith or religion at all.

In such a secular, free and potentially tolerant nation, christian fundamentalism, and religious extremism represent a deadly virus. What Darrell Ray refers to in his book as 'THE GOD VIRUS'. What happens when fundamentalists distort the spiritual essence of god.

A seperation should be made between hating behavior and hating people. I hate that my brother was an adulterer, I do not , however , HATE my brother. I believe there has to be a hatred toward sins, as a christian. I also believe there has to be aknowledgement of forgiveness and love for all people. Any statements that condone hating PEOPLE or promote harming PEOPLE should be addressed. Christians that I know do not condone such things.

Why complicate things so???

What is this new christian belief of HATING, whether it is a sin or or any other form of hating??? When and where did Jesus teach to hate??? Sins or otherwise??? If anything, Jesus taught all to elevate ABOVE AND BEYOND

There is no moral, ethical, emotional or social need to hate period. What's the point of HATING a behavior??? It is a waste of perfectly good energy, and will only give you ulcers in the long run.

If you are clear the adultery is not conducive to a life that works, and that you promote and stand for yourself and for others for a life that works, then just DENOUNCE THE BEHAVIOR as such. The hating part is overkill; totally unproductive.

Why complicate things so???

What is this new christian belief of HATING, whether it is a sin or or any other form of hating??? When and where did Jesus teach to hate??? Sins or otherwise??? If anything, Jesus taught us all to love, to elevate ourselves ABOVE AND BEYOND THE PRIMITIVE INSTINCT OF FEAR AND HATRED in their form.

There is no moral, ethical, emotional or social need to hate period.

What's the point of HATING a behavior??? It is a waste of perfectly good energy, and will only give you ulcers in the long run.

If you are clear the adultery is not conducive to a life that works, and that you promote and stand for yourself and for others for a life that works, then just DENOUNCE THE BEHAVIOR as such. The hating part is overkill; totally unproductive.


Great!!! Here is your chance!

'Thomas', a good christian no doubt, made such a statement.

I have invited, and invite you again to address the situation, as you say, by DENOUNCING his statement.

There comes a point where owning up is of essence if one values maintaining integrity.

I will denounce your statement. To try to get others to denounce someone is against the forum rules.

There is no need for anyone to denounce Thomas, he is not us and we are not him. Once the extremists realise everyone is an individual, the world won't be so segregated.

Nicely said!

Distorting other people's statement will not help forward the debate 'peter'.

Your attempt at insinuate quite wrongly that I am inviting people to denounce someone is flat wrong. Quite to contrary, I have gone to great lengths to claim that this was in no way a personal attack on 'thomas'. Read the posts again my friend.

My invitation strictly deals with a comment that was made in this thread, which addresses the topic in a most pertinent fashion.
CONDONE OR DENOUNCE, pro or con, yeah or neah, EXCLUSIVELY AIMED AT A COMMENT or position expressed, is the explicit question raised with any topic in any forum or debate.

I respectfully denounce your denunciation. :)

Now, do you ...

a) agree with,
b) denounce,

or

c) refuse to answer with respect to the following statement:

'... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destroy our religion. ...'

d) none of the above....

What's with the attitude 'peter'?

This is a fairly simple and straight forward point being debated here.

Are we as families, groups in society in general, political parties, religious communities, or our nation as a whole, promoting or denouncing hateful words and acts of discrimination against each other?

'none of the above', is seriously ineffective debating form IMO.

Why should you and I be of different camps on this simple question?

Because I'm not debating, I'm simply stating my opinion.
If you look back, you'll see that I already addressed his post.

OK! So attitude it is.

It is your privilege.

But you can't say I didn't try!

Maybe next time then?!?!?

I'll give it a shot

1. the WE I don't agree with because no one speak for me and I don't speak for others.
2. No one can destroy or corrupt my beliefs unless I let them....regardless of who they are
3. I can't say I HATE all actions. I might not like them or agree with them. There are certain actions I hate though. But I don't HATE the person.

The way I read it, and with your permission 'yellowrose', I would take to mean a 'denounce' the statement.

I thank you for your straight answer 'yellow'.

the reason I answered that way is not that I denounce it or approve it. There were pieces in that sentence that I don't agree with or maybe it waqs the way that sentence was worded. I don't know.

I cam from the ballet world and had many gay friends. I don't agree or even understand being gay but I don't hate them. They were some of my best friends and wonderful people. If this explanation makes any sense. Sometimes what is in my head comes out strange online

let me explain my thinking a bit further.

de·nounce (d-nouns)
tr.v. de·nounced, de·nounc·ing, de·nounc·es
1. To condemn openly as being evil or reprehensible. See Synonyms at criticize.
2. To accuse formally.
3. To give formal announcement of the ending of (a treaty).


as far as beliefs and opinions, I won't do this. I have my own beliefs and opinions and we are entitled to our own.

Example: In my on line life time, I have seen some vile and hateful and offensive posts. Now the belief and opinion behind them is fine, even if I disagree with it. The way it is carried out, I hate. Neither causes me to hate the posters though.