Miles, if our Founding Fathers were Christians, we would have never decided to break from English rule.

"For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23

Would they have initiated a rebellion if indeed they thought it was equal to witchcraft (a crime punishable by death)? But that's only the tip of the iceberg. The New Testament gives clear instructions to Christians on how to behave when ruled under a monarchy, as were the Founders.

1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

The Founders clearly did not heed what was written in the bible. If they were in fact "good" Christians, there would never have been an American Revolution. Compare the above passages with the Declaration of Independence:

"...when a long train of abuses and usurpations... evinces a design to reduce (the people) under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

Anyone who can think for themselves can see that the Founders were not Christians.

No anyone who can not think for themselves make up fairy tales Krisma. Which is what you all continually do.

The people came to America and broke away from inrighteuous acts.

They gave thier lives for others just as we do today.

Thier is another passage that speaks about a true friend. And to protect the innocent is a true friend.

A friend

John 15:13

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
KJV




Gen 14:13-20

13 Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, for he dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and brother of Aner; and they were allies with Abram. 14 Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. 15 He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus. 16 So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people.

17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley), after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him.

18 Abram and Melchizedek

(Heb 7:1,2)

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said:

"Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand."

And he gave him a tithe of all.
NKJV

Abraham went to war for his friend his brother,

Yahshua said in this regard.

Matt 12:48-13:1

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother ."


NKJV


1. What does Jefferson say the powers of the earth come from?
2. What does this tell you about Jefferson's beliefs?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny [Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly] over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

3. What are the "unalienable Rights?"
4. Where do the just powers of government come from?
5. What right do the people have if the government "becomes destructive?"
6. What does Jefferson say the King of Great Britain has established over the colonies?
7. Read the next section carefully and then write down what you think the ten most important complaints against King George III are. (Hint: Some of the shortest complaints are the most important.)

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

They had good solid reasons for the break and said so in writing. The British went to war with them traveling across the seas to put thier unreasonable laws for the purpose of gain to the throne of England and not for the good of the people.

In doing so they were the ones going against the scriptures and our forfathers died for his brother which is called a True Friend...Shalom...Miles

This Nation was/is a Work in Progress.


Just as Christians are a work in progress.


In fact...we ALL are a Work in Progress!!

And God is not done with any of us....

and God is not done with this nation ..or with any nation for that matter.


So..Let's PRAY for our Leaders!!!

Let's Pray for Our Nation!!!

And Let's Pray for One Another!!!

Now to the post.

I do not subscribe to the idea of strong or weak atheism, that really implies a philosophy which is wrong at its heart.

A person can hold a positive belief that there is a god, but its irrational based on evidence.

It would there for be equally irrational to hold a positive beliefs that there is no god.

Now here is how atheism really works, I don't give a good G-dam what anyone says about the subject otherwise. My logic trumps all and more and more atheist are starting to understand as well. Sadly the theist will always use whatever arguments they can come up with to make lack of belief look bad for there own purposes and further confuse the situation, I have come to accept that.


A positive assertion requires justification.
No assertion requires no justification.

Its that simple.

Theism: the positive belief (assertion) that a god exists. This must be based on faith as there is no evidence to support this.

Atheism: is everything that is not theism. No really it is, if you ALMOST except but not quite that a god COULD exit, guess what . . . you don't believe there for you are an atheist.

It really is simple. People try to make it hard to create confusion and to express there own arguments why lack of belief is bad and try to convert the masses.

Agnosticism at its best describes people who are intellectually honest with themselves . . . THAT IS IT.
Agnosticism is a throw away word, that really came to be so that people who where not sure would not be labeled with the "evil" Blasphemous title of atheist.

No really BLASPHEMY. That is right lack of belief has been punishable BY DEATH for centuries, and you wonder why people make softer words and try not to make it seem like they are a non believer.

That is what has caused this back lash and confusion, and has created the idea of strong atheism, which to me is equally absurd, yet understandable just like theism to me is understandable.

People are angry at religiosity and how it has tried to control every facet of there life and claim ultimate moral supremacy for a long time.

I can understand, but its still absurd.



_____________________________

Actually I am not done here, let me give some examples.

So Miles are you a strong atheist when it comes to belief in Thor? What about Odin? What about Krishna? Or are you agnostic and think that those gods COULD exit, but you don't believe we will ever know . . lol

This conversation when real examples are used really should be highlighted as easily understood.

I think children understand this easier then adults, most have less brain washing to cloud there reasoning.

YES! America is a land with an official religion, just like Iran! Americans everywhere worship the GOD of CEREMONIAL DEISM. That is why we have "under God" in the pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" as our national motto (instead of that namby-pamby "E Pluribus Unum!") and on our coins and currency. Christianity? Bah! Judaism? Bah! And forget Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism and the cult of Cthulhu. Our deity is Providence. The Capital City of Rhode Island is even named for our national God.

So while I tend to agree with your overview - in many ways, I cannot totally agree with your premises without some clarification.

Define for me your idea of what constitutes "evidence", and what does "Justification" mean as you use it.

Are these terms whose criteria must pass your approval?

Here - I'll give an example.

You ask miles if he's an atheist in terms of his belief of Thor and Odin. I would assume by this that both of these referenses are "Gods" by your terms because they were worshipped historically - or so you think, because you have no evidence of any sort that this is true, only acounts by those who have passed on the myth's (gee I knoew I've heard this somewhere before).

What of those who do not consider Thor or Odin "Gods" by the standards that they set for an entity to be recognized as "God"?

Just curious about a clarity of terms here.

Well yanno, MorningSong, it happens here regularly, doesn't it? Some Christian gets all puffed up and quotes the immortal line "This is a Christian Nation and if you as an anostic/atheist don't like, you can leave."


And the silence from your side of the room is deafening...


"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -- George H.W. Bush


-Kerry O.

This country was founded by Deists, not Christians.

Morning Song, I know that no one can get it through to you that Christianity IS A RELIGION.

You keep insisting that Christianity is all about LOVE and that it is NOT A RELIGION.

You keep insisting that Christianity is about a relationship with God.

If that were true then anyone who believed in ANY GOD would be classified CHRISTIAN.

But Christianity claims that their God is the ONLY TRUE GOD.

That is rather arrogant.

They claim that any other religion is not about God at all.

That is wrong and arrogant.

CHRISTIANITY IS A RELIGION MORNING SONG.

You can say that it is not a million times and that will not make it so. You can say it is all about Love and that does not make it so.

Then you go on and on about how you must be born again and accept Jesus as your personal savior and as the messiah. etc.

And then you say that is NOT A RELIGION??

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all to anyone.


It is a religion. It is an organized, recognized religious belief system. It is a religion.

What you have done is make it your way of life. That is fine for you, but it is a religion.

Excuse me?

We are not a Christian nation!

We are a non-religious nation that allows all citizens the freedom of personal religion.

Statistically the vast majority of the religions are various Christian denominations and sects, none of whom are in agreement with each other!

In fact, the only reason that Chrsitainity can claim to be the largest religion in the world is because when they take the stats they count all the various denominations of Protestantism and Catholicism as one religion "Christainity" and then they divide up all the pantheistic relgions into their various sects.

In truth if we just compared Christianity with Pantheism, then Pantheism would be the largest religion in the world.

In fact, I think the Pantheists should start complaining about how the the stats are being recorded because in truth, Pantheism is the largest faith in the world and Christianity is actually second.

In fact, if we divide Christianity up into two groups: the orthodox Christians (those who believe in Chruchianity), and the Designer Christians (those who have denounced the church to invent their own personal walk with God in the name of Jesus), then we'd see that the largest religion in the world is actually Designer Christianity.

Most Designer Christians have no problem with gay marriage, and they accept evolution, and stem cell research. They don't proselyize, and they respect the faiths of religious faiths.

In other words, the Designer Christians are the only ones who actully follow the teaching of Jesus. That's why they denounce the oraganized religion of "Churchianity".

Just like Jesus did.

Hmmm... I don't know Kerry. Though I know there's a mountain of evidence that the founding fathers were influenced by christian beliefs, and biblical concepts - and a majority of them were themselves believers, it was never intended that the country would be known as a "Christian nation", but rather one founded on christian principles. To me - there is a difference.

I would say that this has not been a christian nation in my lifetime. It might have been once. It's not any more.