The constitution does not say anything about what influence over Government religion may have. It is government which may make no laws concerning religion.

Ah... but I am not saying we are not a nation made up of practicing Christains. For the most part, I think that the majority considers the values of this country to be christain. But we are largely a product of those people who we put in positions of leadership in our country - and of that, there has been a steady decline in this nation's recognizing itself as a "christian nation" since the close of the McCarthy era.

Just a casual look at how the courts interpret Law since 1963 is enough to know - that if we are a christian nation - someone forgot to let the SJC's of the land know that.

It is sad. Unfortunately, if we examine where the facts take us - it is not to a place where this country was at the time of the Founding Fathers.

I believe that it is meant to go both ways if you read it correctly.

You are the one claiming this country was founded by Deists. You're wrong. Not only that but you can't even get the list right of those who were Deists - and those who were not. Your statements are not factual. Unless you think the particular biased sites you look up represent fact in this matter.

I'm still waiting for that list of the 27+ Deists who drafted the Constitution, since you claim your statements are factual - than BACK THEM UP!

Else don't be so quick to access anyone elses knowledge of History, when clearly you don't demonstrate any expertise in this matter.

Another statement not based on fact. If you knew anything about History - you would know that even the Supreme court declared this a christian nation.

What are you basing your criteria on to determine if a denomination is Christain or not?

There are some people on thi site who think that because Hitler was a Catholic that the Nazi's are christians - or that the KKK is a christain group.

There are those who are Scotsman - and those who only claim to be, and those who just wished they were.

The wording of the amendment is pretty clear on this. Subsequent commentary by the framers made it clear that it was government that would not have the influence. It was not a statement intended to go both ways, else it would have been worded that way to make it clear.

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." - Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780;)

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.)

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)

Here are some quotes provided by another member of this site on this same subject.

Dragoness...regarding
the info you shared..please list a website...

anyone can write anything.

The founding fathers were definitely opposed to how christianity was just a tyrannical rule of religion in the old country....

and did not want this happening in the new country...


so....what is the "source" of your info that you shared above....

is it from one of those websites , again...

that just gives parts of messages ....taken out of the whole context ?


Pease List the website...

Dragoness...in a nutshell....


How SOME of the Founding Fathers

chose to

believe or not believe.....

STILL.....

does NOT in the least...

take away from the fact,

that this nation was FOUNDED on

CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES.....

And NOT a Religion.


Let's just take a look at

what you shared earlier in your

post , above:


"It cannot be emphasized

too strongly or too often

that this great nation was founded,

NOT by religionists but by

CHRISTIANS,

NOT on religions,

BUT on the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST."
- Patrick Henry


And then let's look

at this now:


"Providence has given to

our people the

CHOICE of their rulers

and it is the duty as well as the

privilege and interest

of a CHRISTIAN NATION

to select and prefer CHRISTIANS for

their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

And lastly,let's look

at the quote below,which btw,

best explains what I was trying to

share earlier ,here on this thread:

<<< By "Christian Nation" ,

I don't mean that everyone is forced

to be a Christian or forced to go to

church or to believe in God.

People are free to be Buddhists or atheists.

The job of government is NOT to

convert or force conversion to any kind of faith.

The job of the government is to do for

the people what they can't do for themselves.

And the job of bringing people to

faith belongs to the private citizens,

the churches, the synagogues and the

religious leaders of our nation.

That separation should always be kept.

What I mean by a CHRISTIAN NATION is a

nation whose laws are self-

consciously BUILT on the LAWS AND

PRINCIPLES OF THE BIBLE. >>>>



http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/heritage.html

I am basing this knowledge on books I have read in the past and not on any websites. Am I not allowed to utilize texts? That shouldn’t matter anyway.

I am not wrong. The six Founding Fathers I have been pointing out were clearly Deists. If you can somehow refute that historical information then do it.

You don’t hear me criticizing your only source material do you? That being the bible.

Yes it does because clearly they were not Christians. When was the last time you prayed at work? It also gives the Christian Right Conservative Movement no rightful claim to this country. Isn’t that what truly frightens you? You are a minority here.

Is that supposed to be a joke or you don’t understand what the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy is exactly? I have heard it used twice now. Once for Hitler and once for the Klan. Read carefully as this paragraph sums it up quite clearly.

the “no true Scotsman” fallacy that Christians are so fond of because it allows them to easily dispose of anyone that doesn’t meet whatever criteria they currently decide to use for Christianity. Child-molesting Catholic priests? No, they’re not real Christians. Bloodthirsty, murderous tyrants? Nope, they’re not Christian either. What constitutes being a Christian, you might ask? Why, whatever the person making the claim believes at the time, of course!

Another case of hit and run. Prove that we are a "Christian Nation." Wouldnt abortion be outlawed in all 50 states by now?

Eljay uttered:



I am saying exactly that. You know why? I am not a Christian. JB is not a Christian. TBRICH is not a Christian. Abra is not a Christian. The list goes on. In fact you are in the minority as a Christian because you are a Born Again.

The KKK is a Christian based organization Eljay. That is fact. I cant prove it because Im not going on any of their websites as Im worried they are flagged.

Christianity, in it's one and only sincere precept, is about being like Christ, who did NOT molest children, was NOT bloodthirsty, and was NOT murderous.

You can say whatever you like to attempt to link Christianity with evil but it doesn't fly...

It's in error, plain and simple.


Never hear of wolves in sheep's clothing?

Rhetorical question, as I know everyone has...

Ive called Eljay on this quote in a past thread. You would think you folks would wise up.

The fake Patrick Henry quote:

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

An impressive statement. It certainly gives credence to the belief that the founders of America were all or predominately devout Christians. It is a popular quotation. A search for the phrase "this great nation was founded not by religionists" on www.google.com returned almost 1,000 hits! One common feature of most of the quotations is that they do not cite the source. We suspect that most webmasters have simply quoted the writings of other webmasters.

It turns out that Patrick Henry probably never said this. At least, nobody has been able to locate it in any of his surviving papers. It is almost certainly a forgery

Do you want me to begin going down the list of your quotes?

Explain that to 11 million dead people and their surviving families.

Show me evidence that Christ advocated murder...

His teachings were against any and all such things.