Topic: Christianity is it a religion, a lie, or simply the truth?
no photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:03 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Verhoeven

Paul Verhoeven is a member of the Jesus Seminar.[10] He is the only member who does not have a degree in biblical studies,[11] although he graduated in mathematics and physics at the University of Leiden.[12][13] Since he is not a professional biblical exegete, his membership in the Jesus Seminar has occasionally been cited by opponents of the Seminar as a sign that this group is less scholarly than it claims.[14] On the other hand, some Jesus Seminar members were unhappy with Verhoeven's portrayal of Jesus as an eschatological prophet.[15]

In 2007 Verhoeven authored the book Jesus - the man (Dutch: Jezus - de man) about the life of Jesus of Nazareth.[16] The book reviews the ideas of Jesus of Nazareth and the alleged corruption of these same ideas over the last 2,000 years. The book may be a preparation for Jesus: The Man, a controversial film project about the life of Jesus.[11]

In 2008 Verhoeven, 69, wrote a biography of Jesus, a book which suggests that Jesus' father might have been a Roman soldier who raped Mary, in 4 B.C. See Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera. This is based on the works of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (37 CE - circa 100 CE) and also supported by theosophist H.P. Blavatsky and the movie Monty Python's The Life of Brian. Verhoeven's book tells about the Jewish uprising against Roman rule and characterizes Jesus as terrorist. He rejects all supernatural happenings and miracles as unproved or unprovable. Marianna Sterk of the publishing house J.M. Meulenhoff said "Jesus of Nazareth: A Realistic Portrait," has been released in September 2008 in Dutch and will be translated into English in 2009.[17]


Not the best source...in fact, a terrible one. The "Jesus Seminar" is a radical "scholarly" group that deny's Jesus' divinity and allows people without any scholarly credentials to join...

Yes, I'm pretty sure that I can find someone who is a little bit more scholarly than the director of Robocop, who will refute his book.

Krimsa's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:05 AM
Thats not the point I was tryign to make Spider. It was that this is a LONG standing theory.

Nubby's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:06 AM


I have not denounced you. If you think Christians do not care about science just read some of John Polkinghorn's stuff. A Christian can believe in evolution and still be a Christian, some hold this view, salvation is not at stake.


John Polkinghorne supports evolution.

"Evolution, of course, is not something that simply applies to life here on earth; it applies to the whole universe." - John Polkinghorne.

So according to mainstream Christianity in America Polkinghorne would be cast aside as a 'heretic'.

Mainstream Christianity in America is out to denounce evolution and instead teach creationsim in our schools.

This just another place where Chrsitianity is absurd.

No two Christians can agree on anything. ohwell

Christianity is a meaningless concept because it means something different to every Christian.

As I often say, if the whole world were to convert to Christianity that would only be the start of the real Holy Wars.




Like I said, some Christians hold this view. The persons salvation is not compromised by this view.

Krimsa's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:07 AM
And there is more.

Rome - Vatican officials have slammed a documentary alleging that the Virgin Mary was a downtrodden teenager who might have conceived Jesus as a result of being raped.

Cardinal Martins José Saraiva, Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, described Sunday's BBC documentary as "nonsense", the Rome daily La Repubblica reported on Monday.

"These are old stories that resurface from time to time and which have never found any historical support," said Saraiva.

"Giving prominence to such legends only falsifies the truth," the cardinal said. "As a Christian I am especially mortified by the fact that such rubbish was aired on the eve of Christmas."






The documentary questioned the belief that Mary was a blue-eyed virgin and raised other doubts about the birth of Jesus in a stable in Bethlehem.

It reported claims put forward by a second-century historian, who alleged she was raped by a Roman centurion.
Another version alleged that she was a hard-working, dark-haired, uneducated teenager who might have conceived Jesus ahead of an arranged marriage with Joseph.

The documentary raises doubts about other traditions, including the birth of Jesus in a stable at Bethlehem and the presence of three wise men.

The programme has also been criticised by Catholic prelates in Britain.

The Bishop of Portsmouth, the Right Reverend Crispian Hollis, accused the programme of offensive speculation which misrepresented a figure respected by millions.

He said: "The Virgin Mary is clearly a person whose life and times are immensely important to the whole of Christian history. As Mother of God, she is honoured and venerated by millions of Catholics and other Christians within these islands and all over the world.

"To include, within a historical examination of her life, confused and unfounded guesswork, which carries with it crude and offensive speculation, is not only unscholarly but runs the risk of undermining the very integrity of the project itself."

But the producer, Alan Bookbinder, defended the decision to question the virgin birth.

He said the documentary, called The Virgin Mary, gave a "sense of wonder at her miraculous story. Above all, it shows a respect for the special place that Mary has in the hearts of believers."

A Sunday Telegraph survey found that the traditional account of the virgin birth was also openly questioned by members of the Church of England clergy. - Sapa-DP

Nubby's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:08 AM
Yeah, the Jesus seminar is way left. Many Critical scholars do not agree with them.

Nubby's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:11 AM

And there is more.

Rome - Vatican officials have slammed a documentary alleging that the Virgin Mary was a downtrodden teenager who might have conceived Jesus as a result of being raped.

Cardinal Martins José Saraiva, Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, described Sunday's BBC documentary as "nonsense", the Rome daily La Repubblica reported on Monday.

"These are old stories that resurface from time to time and which have never found any historical support," said Saraiva.

"Giving prominence to such legends only falsifies the truth," the cardinal said. "As a Christian I am especially mortified by the fact that such rubbish was aired on the eve of Christmas."






The documentary questioned the belief that Mary was a blue-eyed virgin and raised other doubts about the birth of Jesus in a stable in Bethlehem.

It reported claims put forward by a second-century historian, who alleged she was raped by a Roman centurion.
Another version alleged that she was a hard-working, dark-haired, uneducated teenager who might have conceived Jesus ahead of an arranged marriage with Joseph.

The documentary raises doubts about other traditions, including the birth of Jesus in a stable at Bethlehem and the presence of three wise men.

The programme has also been criticised by Catholic prelates in Britain.

The Bishop of Portsmouth, the Right Reverend Crispian Hollis, accused the programme of offensive speculation which misrepresented a figure respected by millions.

He said: "The Virgin Mary is clearly a person whose life and times are immensely important to the whole of Christian history. As Mother of God, she is honoured and venerated by millions of Catholics and other Christians within these islands and all over the world.

"To include, within a historical examination of her life, confused and unfounded guesswork, which carries with it crude and offensive speculation, is not only unscholarly but runs the risk of undermining the very integrity of the project itself."

But the producer, Alan Bookbinder, defended the decision to question the virgin birth.

He said the documentary, called The Virgin Mary, gave a "sense of wonder at her miraculous story. Above all, it shows a respect for the special place that Mary has in the hearts of believers."

A Sunday Telegraph survey found that the traditional account of the virgin birth was also openly questioned by members of the Church of England clergy. - Sapa-DP


There is no empirical evidence what so ever

Krimsa's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:14 AM
It’s a theory. Show me your empirical evidence to support the claim of a "virgin" birth. By the way the term "almah" refers to "young woman" in Hebrew.

Abracadabra's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:15 AM

Like I said, some Christians hold this view. The persons salvation is not compromised by this view.


The very idea that a creator would condemn a person to eternal damnation just because they didn't believe that Mediterranean authors were telling the truth is itself an insane notion.

Why would the creator of this unisverse make the salvation of all humnans dependent upon a belief in the folklore of a very crude and unruly society that was clearly ungodly?

That would be insane, and therefore that would mean that our creator is insane.


Seamonster's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:16 AM


Not true.

there is evidence that Jesus never existed and you can use the bible to show that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2UJxPECNdU





http://www.godvsthebible.com/about

The author "John Armstrong" has no credentials to give his statements any weight. Historians and theologians agree that a man named Jesus existed, preached and was believed to work miracles. There is simply too much historical evidence to deny that. The Gospels are too accurate to be denied on historical evidence. Now you are welcome to your own opinion, but how much is an opinion which goes against historical scholarship worth? Honestly, it's prejudice and bias. So keep your prejudiced and biased opinion, but I would think that anyone who valued intellectual honesty would be ashamed to hold a belief that is so completely against what we KNOW to be true.


the gospels are by far accurate.
They contradict each other so how can they be accurate?
I still have not seen any proof of this resarection.
And show me what in that video is false.
There is no real evidence of a jesus.
And even if there was, there is nothing outside of the bible that proves he did anything the bible says he did.

Krimsa's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:16 AM

Yeah, the Jesus seminar is way left. Many Critical scholars do not agree with them.


Yet it is supported by several historians none the less. I wouldn’t trust any right wingers on this. What are you nuts?

Nubby's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:20 AM
Presuppositions of the Jesus Seminar.

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover1.html

no photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:21 AM



Not true.

there is evidence that Jesus never existed and you can use the bible to show that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2UJxPECNdU





http://www.godvsthebible.com/about

The author "John Armstrong" has no credentials to give his statements any weight. Historians and theologians agree that a man named Jesus existed, preached and was believed to work miracles. There is simply too much historical evidence to deny that. The Gospels are too accurate to be denied on historical evidence. Now you are welcome to your own opinion, but how much is an opinion which goes against historical scholarship worth? Honestly, it's prejudice and bias. So keep your prejudiced and biased opinion, but I would think that anyone who valued intellectual honesty would be ashamed to hold a belief that is so completely against what we KNOW to be true.


the gospels are by far accurate.
They contradict each other so how can they be accurate?
I still have not seen any proof of this resarection.
And show me what in that video is false.
There is no real evidence of a jesus.
And even if there was, there is nothing outside of the bible that proves he did anything the bible says he did.



Historically accurate.

Pontius Pilot was the governor of Israel when Jesus was alive. It accurately names the ruler of Syria. It accurately describes events that are confirmed by other historical documents. The grammar and words used were used during the first century. Customs described are confirmed by other documents. Crucifixion in the style described in the Bible wasn't recorded in any other place and was thought to be a lie. But they found a human ankle bone that confirmed that the manner of crucifixion was used. I could go on. That's what it means to be historically accurate.

Nubby's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:22 AM



Not true.

there is evidence that Jesus never existed and you can use the bible to show that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2UJxPECNdU





http://www.godvsthebible.com/about

The author "John Armstrong" has no credentials to give his statements any weight. Historians and theologians agree that a man named Jesus existed, preached and was believed to work miracles. There is simply too much historical evidence to deny that. The Gospels are too accurate to be denied on historical evidence. Now you are welcome to your own opinion, but how much is an opinion which goes against historical scholarship worth? Honestly, it's prejudice and bias. So keep your prejudiced and biased opinion, but I would think that anyone who valued intellectual honesty would be ashamed to hold a belief that is so completely against what we KNOW to be true.


the gospels are by far accurate.
They contradict each other so how can they be accurate?
I still have not seen any proof of this resarection.
And show me what in that video is false.
There is no real evidence of a jesus.
And even if there was, there is nothing outside of the bible that proves he did anything the bible says he did.



R. T. France, a British New Testament scholar, has written,

"At the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the Gospels seriously as a source of information on the life and teaching of Jesus.... Indeed many ancient historians would count themselves fortunate to have four such responsible accounts [as the Gospels], written within a generation or two of the events, and preserved in such a wealth of early manuscript evidence. Beyond that point, the decision to accept the record they offer is likely to be influenced more by openness to a supernaturalist world view than by strictly historical considerations."

Krimsa's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:22 AM
Edited by Krimsa on Sun 01/18/09 10:24 AM
That carries as much weight as any of the articles I have posted. I would question this if I was you. It is much more likely that she was sexually assaulted. Don’t you want to know the truth?

no photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:29 AM




Not true.

there is evidence that Jesus never existed and you can use the bible to show that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2UJxPECNdU





http://www.godvsthebible.com/about

The author "John Armstrong" has no credentials to give his statements any weight. Historians and theologians agree that a man named Jesus existed, preached and was believed to work miracles. There is simply too much historical evidence to deny that. The Gospels are too accurate to be denied on historical evidence. Now you are welcome to your own opinion, but how much is an opinion which goes against historical scholarship worth? Honestly, it's prejudice and bias. So keep your prejudiced and biased opinion, but I would think that anyone who valued intellectual honesty would be ashamed to hold a belief that is so completely against what we KNOW to be true.


the gospels are by far accurate.
They contradict each other so how can they be accurate?
I still have not seen any proof of this resarection.
And show me what in that video is false.
There is no real evidence of a jesus.
And even if there was, there is nothing outside of the bible that proves he did anything the bible says he did.



R. T. France, a British New Testament scholar, has written,

"At the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the Gospels seriously as a source of information on the life and teaching of Jesus.... Indeed many ancient historians would count themselves fortunate to have four such responsible accounts [as the Gospels], written within a generation or two of the events, and preserved in such a wealth of early manuscript evidence. Beyond that point, the decision to accept the record they offer is likely to be influenced more by openness to a supernaturalist world view than by strictly historical considerations."



Notice that R. T. France is a "New Testament scholar" not a Hollywood movie director.

R. T. France's credentials...

He was born 2 April 1938, educated at Bradford Grammar School and Balliol College (MA). He earned his BD at the University of London and his PhD at Bristol University. He served as a curate in Cambridge and then[1]: Full name Balliol College Motto - Named after John de Balliol Previous names - Established 1263 Sister College St Johns College, Cambridge Master Andrew Graham (academic) Location Broad Street Undergraduates 403 Graduates 228 Homepage Boatclub Balliol College, founded in 1263, is one of the constituent colleges of the University of Oxford... The University of London is a university based primarily in London. ... The University of Bristol was founded in 1876 as the University College, Bristol. ...

* Lecturer in Biblical Studies, University of Ife (1969-73)
* Librarian, Tyndale House Cambridge (1973-76)
* Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, Ahmadu Bello University (1976-77)
* Warden, Tyndale House (1978-81)
* London Bible College Senior Lecturer (1981-88); Vice-Principal (1983-88)
* Principal, Wycliffe Hall Oxford 1989-95


Paul Verhoeven

Directed Robocop and Starship troopers...


Hmmmm...which to beleive...which to believe...

Nubby's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:29 AM

That carries as much weight as any of the articles I have posted. I would question this if I was you. It is much more likely that she was sexually assaulted. Don’t you want to know the truth?


I do not even think the Jesus seminar (far left) believes that Marry was raped. I do not know of any Scholar that does.

Abracadabra's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:30 AM

the gospels are by far accurate.
They contradict each other so how can they be accurate?


Truly.

The gospels contain countless contraditions.

Here's a prime example:


John 5:23 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"


John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


1. All judgment has been given to Jesus (the Son, in Christianity).
2. Jesus will not judge us.
3. But if you reject Jesus God will judge you.

Clearly the text makes no sense if we think of Jesus as the son of the God of Abraham.

However:

If Jesus is viewed at a Buddhist, then these verses make perfect sense within the framework of the Buddha philosophy.

Further evidence that Jesus denounced the God of Abraham and supported Buddhism.

Because when viewed in the context of Jesus having been a Buddhist then "The Son" would be any mortal man. And God would be any higher self.

Thus it makes perfect sense. All judment is given to the individual (that's Buddhism).

Jesus cannot judge anyone! Of course not! All judgement is given to the son (the individual) only the individual can judge themselves.

And finally, it will be the individual's higher self that make the last judgment.

In fact, Jesus reinforced this view many times in different ways. He said things like, "You will be judge the way in which you judge"

You are the judge!

But it's a different kind of judgment than was attributed to the God of Abraham. A person must understand Buddhism to understand why this makes perfect sense that Jesus was a Buddhist who came to denounce the false God of the Old Testament.

no photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:31 AM
If I want to watch a movie...I'll get one by "Paul Verhoeven". If I want to read Biblical Scholarship...I'll trust "R. T. France".

no photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:31 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Sun 01/18/09 10:33 AM


That carries as much weight as any of the articles I have posted. I would question this if I was you. It is much more likely that she was sexually assaulted. Don’t you want to know the truth?


I do not even think the Jesus seminar (far left) believes that Marry was raped. I do not know of any Scholar that does.
I don't know anyone who has any evidence to propose any answer for any assertion regarding this one. Reality and everything we see every day would discount an "immaculate conception".

If we go by the writing's back in ancient times it would appear this happened a lot . . . I wonder why it doesn't happen anymore . . .

Krimsa's photo
Sun 01/18/09 10:33 AM


That carries as much weight as any of the articles I have posted. I would question this if I was you. It is much more likely that she was sexually assaulted. Don’t you want to know the truth?


I do not even think the Jesus seminar (far left) believes that Marry was raped. I do not know of any Scholar that does.


Several historians do. I just posted it if you would read anything. No one who is intelligent buys into the Immaculate Conception. It was either a rape or she became pregnant before she was betrothed to Joseph.