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| Topic: Arguments for the existence of God | |
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Also.. some that claim to be Christians..... might not even be christians at all. "You shall know them by their fruits."   Well, personally MorningSong, I don't blieve that our creator is appeased by blood sacrifices so I'll pass on the whole mythology. However, even use seem to recognize that many Christians may not be spiritually sincere. So that goes along with what I'm saying anyway. Christian organizations that denounce Gays, denounce the scientific fact of evolution, denounce stem cell research, and denounce non-Christians as being ungodly would all have rotten fruit. So clearly even if you're right the major Christian organizations and Churches in this country are false Christians who have rotten fruit.  Abra....did it ever occur to you, that God did things the way He did...so man could RELATE? God stepped down from His heavenly throne....leaving ALL His heavenly glory behind... to come dwell with us... and talk with us.. and walk with us ... and weep with us... and laugh with us.... and even gave us his only begotten Son..in a way man could already relate to... thru sacrifice on a cross.... If God had done things any other way...would man have been able to relate...and understand? What if God never came to dwell with us at all.... and remained far off..... would man ever have understood God? But God DID come to dwell with us... so we could understand God. And Know God.
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Why did Jesus have to die?
http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mc09.htm Now if we had not fallen, that would be all plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all--to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has; this thing, in His own nature, He has not. But supposing God became a man--suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person--then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sat 01/17/09 11:34 PM
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If god was omnipotent he could have just made humans perfect so there would be no need for "saviors" and guilt associations at all but as it is, we are homo sapiens, animals, related to primates. We are not perfect. God DID create man PERFECT.... but man SINNED.... But, if man sinned, then man was not perfect. Man was created PERFECT, but man ALSO was created with a FREE WILL...to CHOOSE....to obey or disobey.... Man CHOSE to SIN. Look also at Lucifer..... God created Lucifer to be one of Heaven's most beautiful angels... and btw.... Lucifer was also created with a free will.... And Lucifer CHOSE to REBEL . See.....God did not create Lucifer to be evil...Lucifer CHOSE to rebel and become Evil.... Just as God did not create man to be disobedient and sin... man CHOSE to Sin. See....God does not want ROBOTS .... God wants willing hearts believing on Him and obeying Him. Truth is.. there is great JOY in coming to God with a WILLING heart now... by CHOICE.... So...in the end...God works it all together for Good. IF man had NOT fallen, man never would have known the joy , in choosing to come to God WILLINGLY now.... and Obeying God with a WILLING HEART now. Amen? It ALL works out in the end....even better.... cause we come back to God... with willing hearts now...and serve Him with great Joy. In fact, in Him....... there is found .... no Greater Joy...no Greater Peace....no Greater Love !! And Oh...one more thing.. satan is already a DEFEATED FOE!! Jesus already Won the Victory over the enemy, by what Jesus did on that cross. But we STILL Have a choice... to Come to God Willingly..or not. We still or given a choice.... to either accept what Jesus already did for us all...or not accept. Our choice. God WON'T force us to choose Jesus..... that Free gift of Grace....offered up for us all... God leaves that choice still...up to us. Remember.... we were created with a FREE WILL..... and God will NEVER come against our Free will. Ever. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sat 01/17/09 11:52 PM
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(((((
Spidercmb)))))) ((((( Eljay)))))) (((((( AllenAqua)))))) Just Special Hugs For Some Special Brothers in Christ here.... Who Shared the Love of God ... Ever So Faithfully . May God Bless and Encourage You Now.... And May God Bless and Encourage Everyone Here !!! Amen!!! |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sat 01/17/09 11:26 PM
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One more thing to All The Precious Folks On Here.........
To Get to KNOW GOD.....For REAL Now.... Get Your eyes OFF Man.... and Get Your eyes ON GOD!!!!  Man will let you down..... GOD WON'T!!! And so therefore....if You are looking at Christians..DOn'T.... cause we christians are still a work in Progress.... and God is still perfecting us again into His Perfect Image... as it was in the beginning... but.... God ain't done with any of us by a long shot yet..Amen?  But we are getting there... and so will You.... if You too, Will ask the Lord Jesus into your hearts now.... as YOUR Saviour too... so He can begin doing that Perfecting Work in your life too. Hey!! God Loves You , Folks!!! So Do We!!!!
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 http://www.promiseofgod.com/searching/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sun 01/18/09 05:25 AM
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Okay so questions still that have been overlooked and covered up with a bunch of protestations.
Who do you think the god of the OT was exactly? It does not matter if there were Christians yet. That made no sense. Who was asking that sinners be stoned? Here it is again. For touching Mount Sinai Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13 For taking "accursed things" Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26 For cursing or blaspheming And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16 For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 For animals (like an ox that gores a human) If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28 For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 For worshipping other gods If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10 For disobeying parents If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 For witches and wizards A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27 For giving your children to Molech Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2 For breaking the Sabbath They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56 For cursing the king Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10 |
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 I’m not feigning any innocence. Bring it on. I have already told you, any of you, if one shred of historical evidence I have brought to this debate is flawed or exaggerated or incorrect, then refute it..Go ahead. Can you sum up in two sentences your best argument for rejecting the Christian faith. I dont think I can narrow it down to just two sentences honestly. I have spent about the past 8 months giving reasons to reject this religion. So have other people and they have been here for years. I cant compile all of that into two sentences. In working hard on all these reasons...have you considered talking to the Creator of the universe about it? Because His character is one of holiness and justice but also of love and a desire to be at one with his childred, he does not mind when we argue with Him or accuse Him...at least it gives Him a chance to answer. I was mad at him yesterday when I was alone on yet another Saturday. I talked to Him about it and he answered through converstaions that occurred after that. Those who are true Christians will only wish you the best in your search for truth. |
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I sympathize with your position here but let’s try to stay on topic please. I want that question answered.
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If god was omnipotent he could have just made humans perfect so there would be no need for "saviors" and guilt associations at all but as it is, we are homo sapiens, animals, related to primates. We are not perfect. God DID create man PERFECT.... but man SINNED.... But, if man sinned, then man was not perfect. Man was created PERFECT, but man ALSO was created with a FREE WILL...to CHOOSE....to obey or disobey.... Something that "was created" with the option of not being perfect, then cannot be perfect. |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Sun 01/18/09 08:25 AM
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And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD,
he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16 No divine creator would have ever said this. Clearly this is the creed of man. They have their congregations stoning anyone who disagrees with them. This has nothing to do with God. This has to do with men inciting mobs to support their dogma. This is precisely what makes religions so hateful. Some male chuavinist pigs wrote laws, and then they have the people stone anyone to death who disagrees with their ungodly creeds. That whole Mediterranean picture has nothing do do with any divine being. It's the hatred of men who blasphemed themselves by claiming to speak for God. The congregation should have stoned the authors of these godforsaken stories That's who they should have been stoning to death. The Cathers were right. The Old Testament was indeed written by Satan. Ungodly men who claimed to speak for God! Even Jesus denounced this crap! Jesus didn't support this! Even the Bible itself CONFESSES THIS! Jesus did not support the Old Testament! That is the LIE of Christainity! Jesus was not the Christ. He was a mortal man, not unlike me. In fact, apparently he was very much like me actually. If Jesus were on these forums today, the Christians would be the first ones to denounce him! |
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The Cathers were right. That Cathers were probably onto something but of course the Catholics ordered them all put to death for being Witches and consorting with the devil. |
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Something that "was created" with the option of not being perfect, then cannot be perfect. Can you explain that logic? |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Sun 01/18/09 10:45 AM
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The entire idea of isolated perfection is absurd.
Perfection only makes sense in relation to something that is not perfect. It is entirely relational and thus any singular thing in isolation could not know, or be perfect. If there was a singular entity prior to creation perfection would not be a concept it could understand until after it failed to create itself. . . . failure would imply non perfection. I love you guys, I really do. I guess its because I was always enamored of Ionesco and absurdism in general as a method of paralleling reality to anti-reality. and MS can you please take just a moment after posting to look at what you posted to see if you accidentally ruined the page formatting and edit it out? THANKS!  
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The entire idea of isolated perfection is absurd. Perfection only makes sense in relation to something that is not perfect. It is entirely relational and thus any singular thing in isolation could not know, or be perfect. If there was a singular entity prior to creation perfection would not be a concept it could understand until after it failed to create itself. . . . failure would imply non perfection. I love you guys, I really do. I guess its because I was always enamored of Ionesco and absurdism in general as a method of paralleling reality to anti-reality. and MS can you please take just a moment after posting to look at what you posted to see if you accidentally ruined the page formatting and edit it out? THANKS! No, perfection is a description of an absolute. So while one might not understand perfection in a world where everything is perfect, perfect would still exist. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Sun 01/18/09 10:50 AM
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I would be thrilled if you ladies and gents who support
the Cosmological argument would join me at the below thread for just that argument. Looks like this one has now focused on the moral argument. http://mingle2.com/topic/show/198378 |
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Abra....did it ever occur to you, that God did things the way He did...so man could RELATE? No, not at all. I don't believe that most men are as stupid as the men who wrote the Bible. Nor to I believe that most men are as stupid as the men who believed that the Bible represents the word of God. On the contrary I see the men, and women who were murdered by those believers as having been the more intelligent humans. So I believe that if our creator was going to write something for us to read it would have been aimed at intelligent people instead of the morons. After all, even God would know that morons would get it all wrong. So, no, I don't believe that any all-wise intelligent creator would stoop to acting like a moron just to try to communicate with the least intelligent members of our species. Even an intelligent human would see the error in that type of thinking. If you want people to do good things you don't lower yourself to doing the very things that you are attempting to teach them not to do. The examples given by the biblical God are horrible examples. This can only be because the authors who made up those stories weren't very bright. The idea that God would act like a moron in an attempt to communicate with morons is itself a moronic idea. Besides, God supposedly created us. If God wanted us to be smart then why did he created mankind to be so stupid? Clearly there is the eternal problem with this biblical myth of a God who expects men to be perfect, but had created them to be so pathetically stupid. These kinds of excuses for the biblical myth don't give it credence at all, but rather just demonstrate why it can't be the word of any divine creator. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ypREBYEZU
I found this great video on the topic of morals. |
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if something wishes to not be looked at for the sake of sparing others being stumbled by seeing what is "still a work in progress", then is not this most created for others by speaking not what be true, and not true?
was not the evidence of god within to be "all knowing" of god, if one has met and know god itself? then why does one say with one side of the mouth, "heed not "christians" for more knowing", then say with the other side of the mouth, "I KNOW THE WAY"? |
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Inkracer said:
Something that "was created" with the option of not being perfect, then cannot be perfect. I think the opposite; that if it did not have "options" it could not be perfect. For the idea of having options goes with the idea that the thing "being created" is conscious life and what kind of perfection is conscious life if it has no options? No options means no "free will," no "free will" means no choice. The thing being created, be it biological or not, would be a machine. Now it the object was to create a perfect machine, perhaps that is possible. But if the object is to create a perfect conscious being, rather than a drone or robot, then options must be available. |
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