Well I must admit the only religious conversations I am interested in discussing are the ones that promote negative aspects of the religion in my mind, I mean I have friends that are the extreme peaceful and live and let live religious types and we never exchange a harsh word of debate amongst each other however they do not claim to have ultimate knowledge, and neither do I.

If you are not trying to enforce your ideas on others and claim universal knowledge and authority then I have no issue.

I will not deny I gain entertainment from these discussions or I would not engage in them.

That's fine, I understand your contention, just please realize that in the process of this particular "debate", we as Christians do not weaken and lose our faith. The discussions only cause to make us ever more fervent in the study of God's holy word.
In effect, it has the complete opposit effect of what you might presumably think because in that fervency, there is a quickening that ultimately serves God's purpose as it makes us better fishers of men.
No Christian worth his title as such will ever just begin thinking to himself "gee... I guess those atheist are on to something... maybe I should just chuck it all and go make up my own theology"
And I'd submit also that no readers on the fence are going to automatically dismiss the hope for God and a saviour just because of the sour grapes that are dished up in these threads.

Really? Do you really believe that? If so, then I'm afraid that you don't know much about religion or the world. I'm would guess that you know less about the world and world religions than you do about Christianity, but I'm not sure if that is even possible.

I completely respect that outlook.

For some people, "negativity" is seen as anyone who does not agree with your percepts.

I was actually answering a question posed by Allen that asked why do we spend so much time debating it. I told him why.

As far as my own "preaching," that does not make me a "hypocrite." I practice what I preach to the best of my ability and I truly believe what I say. There is nothing hypocritical about that. And yes, there are many who disagree with me. But I have never asked them why they spend so much time debating about it. And that was the whole reason for my post, ~ to answer that question.

You are probably right about that. The Christians who go to such lengths to defend and preach their chosen doctrine are certainly going to stand their ground when confronted or apposed, if not for their faith but for their own pride.

They, after all, are the ones getting out there in people's faces and declaring that they have the truth of truths.

So you have enlightened me. I am now considering the option of just ignoring them altogether and place my attention on more fruitful pursuits.

Good day, and thank you very much.

You take everything far too personal Spider, and your comebacks are far too personal as well.

If you support the burning times in the name of Jesus Christ, then so be it.

If you support the crusades in the name of Jesus Christ, then so be it.

If you don't, then you're actually in agreement with me.

So try to snap out of personal attack mode and try to think about the actual concepts at hand.

Thank you.

If you can't support Christianity with love, then it's time to consider what the problem is.

Obviously if you need to sink to making snide personal comments, that can only mean that you have nothing positive to say about your own faith.

The history of Christianity speaks for itself. No need to attack me personally for speaking the historical truth.

That just makes it look like your embarrassed of the truth and can't defend against it.

The crusades are the only reason you aren't a Muslim.

The "burning times" are a hoax. Those people who were killed...for the most part their religions died out long ago. No pagan religions still exist from that time. This is a historical fact. The Jews survived and so did non-Catholic Christians. But pagans? Nope. If that had, historians would be all over that like a chicken on a junebug.

I stand by my statement. If you think that Christianity is the worlds worst religion, then you don't know much about world religions. There is one religion that teaches that their god wants his followers to kill themselves in his name. They blow up women and children in the name of their god. There is a country were a movie with two women falling in love caused riots, murders and a rash of theater burnings. There are people being raped in Africa right now because of their religion. The raped women and girls are given a slash to their thigh, so that everyone will know they were raped. Those women are then rejected by their families and husbands, forced to live as beggars and prostitutes. There are terrible things in this world. Christianity doesn't have a stellar past, there were some very bad Christians. But the principles of Christianity make it the most moral religion on the planet. Christians give more to charity than any other religion. When Katrina happened, hundreds of Christians showed up to help before the government did. Thousands of churches took up collections to feed and cloth the effected. When the tsunami hit, Christians from around the world reached out to those effected with money, food, clothing and their own personal time coming to help with the recovery. Say what you will about me, I know I'm not a good Christian. But if you are an honest person, you will admit that Christianity is a force for good in the world today.

There are Christians who confess to having difficulty keeping their faith when they see the Biblical God failing them day after day after day.

Many of them are also troubled by the bigotry and hypocrisy that they see within the Christian organizations.

Many of them are troubled by much of the clearly ungodly things that are claimed by the Bible.

Many of them are wising up to the fact that they may have been railroaded into the religion without truly considering all the possiblities.

Also, many of them are beginning to realize that atheism isn't the only other choice.

I'm certainly no atheist, yet I denounce Chrsitianity as being totally ungodly.



It is truly sad that anyone would be clinging to a religion just on the hope of a God and a savior.

That's truly a sad reason to turn to a religion. That's nothing more than desperation and a hope of avoiding hoplessness.

Like I say, it truly doesn't come down to the idea that either God is the horror story of the Bible, or there is no God at all.

That, in fact, is the very mentality that keeps so many Christians going.

They sincerely believe that either the Bible is true, or the only other option is atheism.

And that's so wrong.

And so sad.

That is precisely what keeps most Chrsitains hanging on. They think it's either the Bible, or nothing. And as disgusting as the bibilcal picture of God is, it still looks better than what they consider to be the alternative - atheism.

It's truly sad that most Americans are so totally uneducated in the philosophy of the far east. They have no clue of the real peace, love and beauty they are missing.

So they settle for the bigotry and hypocrisy of Christianity as an alternative to atheism.

An act of pure desperation.

if hes there hes there and if hes not then i have no idea who the hell ive been praying to ....but is it so sad to think that life is meaningless and we're just passing by?....

You're living in a dream world, fella.

Let me know when you're prepared to face reality.

Find a scholarly source that suggests any pagan religions survived from that time. They simply didn't. The movie "the Burning Times" was a gross exaggeration, with completely fictional accounts of how the witches were supposedly executed.

I'm not excusing what happened, but it was caused by superstition, not Christianity. Those people believed that some people had magic powers and that they were able to control the minds of others or make them sick or even die. Given their superstitious beliefs, their actions were reasonable. Pagans were known to commit human sacrifices, which nobody seems to lament. How many people were sacrificed to pagan gods and not a tear is shed. Why? Because they were ignorant and superstitious. Their actions were reasonable given their beliefs. To our enlightened minds, human sacrifices and witch trials are terrible, but in that time and place, it seemed reasonable. It's a human tragedy and not a stigma that people who weren't even born should live under. No Christian should have to apologize for actions of a superstitious people who are long dead.

Yes, that would truly be sad.

Fortunately there are actually sane picture of God where no one needs to be nailed to a pole to appease it.

I mean let's face it. The idea that our creator is appeased by having people nailed to poles isn't much much prettier than atheism.

In fact, in my humble opinion that's far worse.

I'd rather there be no God at all, than to discover that our creator can only be pacified by having someone nailed to a pole.

Truly, atheism is far more sane than the biblical picture of God.

But like I say, there are far better pictures of God available. Buddhism is a picture of a truly perfect God. Everyone wins, there are no losers, and God does need to have people nailed to poles to be happy.

The superstition was Christianity.

It was entirely sparked by a belief in the Christian devil.

It was also the commandment in the Old Testament, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" that fueled it and was used to justify it in the name of God.

As far as asking any modern Christians to apologize for that is absurd.

I'm not asking for an apology. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the superstition.

I'm not holding modern Christians accountable for anything. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the superstition that they are buying into.

You don't "own" Christianity. You're a victim of it!

You don't need to defend it anymore than someone who has cancer needs to defend their disease.

You didn't create the religion, you just bought into it.

I do hold modern day Christians accountable for what they do today in the name of this same superstious crap though.

I hole them accountable for the mental and emotional anguish that they push onto people who love within their own gender.

Christians are spitting in the face of Jesus when they denounce the behavior of another person, becasue the Bible clearly claims that Jesus taught us not to judge others.

At least of you're going to buy into the religion try and do what Jesus said and don't pass judgment on other people.

And that includes putting down non-believers as having "rejected God".

It's precisely those kind of bigotry seeds that give rise to the atrocities such as the burning times.

Hopefully we're civilized enough today that we'll never see that kind of horror again. But to even harrass people in the name of Jesus for who they love, or who they worship is emotional terror.

I'm just sick of watching emotional terrorism in the name of Jesus.

It's not moral at all.

Hmmm Actually I am not sure you do understand. You are saying that nothing can sway you. But the thing is no one wants to sway you. We already know that some of you are so into your belief that nothing could sway you. That is why I wonder why you spend so much time where we are?

I am not even curious about your beliefs, I have heard them all before. I like hearing about other beliefs that are not rigid and un yielding. So you won't make believers of us with that standard biblical track, and never will in most cases. That is exactly why mega churches are so popular, they just haven't realized that they have not changed the message, just how it's delivered. Though it's a bit strange because we still recognize that old familiar rethoric.

We prefer to discuss this sort of thing with people who have questions, but we aren't looking for the pat biblical answers that you want to give us, so all this discussion ever turns into is a headache, it's never really a debate because you can't debate a wall. Right?

Must sleep now.. night!

http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v08/n11/reall-news-v08-n11.pdf


These "witches" are being killed by tribal shaman, not Christians. The "witches" being killed are killed because of superstition, just like the witches of the middle ages. Christianity doesn't make one more likely to kill "witches" any more than any other religion does. What inclines one to killing "witches" is ignorance and superstition.

That's ignoring the fact that Christians aren't allowed to execute witches by their scriptures. The apostles didn't kill the practitioners of magic that they ran into in Acts.

No one cares if your faith "weakens." That’s not the point. If you choose to proselytize and make wild assertions in the General Religion forum, you must expect to hear opposing viewpoints. It’s as simple as that. You were already given your own forum in which to speak freely and not hear any dissenting remarks. It was called "Christian Singles." But like JB mentioned, there is no one to talk to or try to convert there so you routinely spill out here into General Religion and then get upset and scream "bashing" when people disagree with you.

WITCH-HUNT

July 3, 2003: Two women accused of witchcraft burned to death by a mob in the Godda, Jharkhand.

March 19, 2006: A family of five beheaded in Sonitpur, Assam by a mob who accused them of witchcraft.

August 2, 2007: Two tribal widows were killed in Jamshedpur, Jharkhand after they were branded witches.

November 12, 2007: A man was arrested by the police for killing an elderly woman after calling her a witch.

March 20, 2008: An old woman was beaten to death in Aurangabad, Bihar village on suspicion of practising witchcraft.

March 27, 2008: Sixteen arrested for allegedly burning alive a 40-year-old tribal woman in Chhattisgarh on suspicion of practising witchcraft.

For worshipping other gods

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

For witches and wizards

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

And before you start whining that this was the OT, the OT is the WORD OF GOD.

Oh this just keeps getting better and better.

Spider espoused:



Where have I heard that same sentiment being expressed? I’m not going to bother to post all of the historical information about this long running event. Any one of us can look up “The Burning Times”. You can go to a public library and read about it. You can go online and investigate also. It took place in the US (1692 Salem, Mass) and also throughout Europe to a far greater extent. It was a hysteria generated and supported by the Church. You are not to sit here and re-write history, Spider. I included another incident from 1999. Hatred and fear is alive and well.


1999: Conservative Christian pastors occasionally call for a renewal of the burning times, to exterminate Wiccans and other Neopagans. One example shows the intensity of misinformation and hatred that fear of Witches can continue to generate in modern times. In 1999-AUG, Rev. Jack Harvey, pastor of Tabernacle Independent Baptist Church in Killeen, TX allegedly arranged for at least one member of his church to carry a handgun during religious services, "in case a warlock tries to grab one of our kids...I've heard they drink blood, eat babies. They have fires, they probably cook them..." During speeches which preceded his church's demonstration against Wiccans, Rev. Harvey allegedly stated that the U.S. Army should napalm Witches. One of the Christian's signs read "Witchcraft is an abomination" on one side and "Burn the witches off Ft. Hood" on the other. 9 (Ft. Hood is a large army base near Killeen TX. A Wiccan faith group is active there.)