I read the link you gave me and typed in refutations for several hours here.

I've also read the Bible.

Where do you get off claiming that I haven't read the Bible?

Clearly you'll just say anything you feel like saying.

You obviously don't care about truth at all.

You have an agenda, and that's all you care about.

Period.

Jesus did believe in everything in the Old Testament. He quoted the Torah frequently. He argued against the Pharisees using the Torah. You would do yourself a great favor to actually sit down and read Mere Christianity and the Bible. If nothing else you would have a firm understanding of Biblical principles that you could use when arguing against Christianity.

I tell the truth as I see it. I don't believe you have read more than a fraction of the Bible or Mere Christianity. I don't believe you have read either with the goal of being open minded.

I'm fully aware of what the authors of the Bible were attempting to claim.

I read the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK!

You read it with some preconcieved notion of what you think it's supposed to be about.

Try recognizing that Jesus was a victim in all of this rather than the star, and then maybe you can begin to see how he was USED!

Jesus was being used as a dead marionette doll by the men who wrote the New Testament.

And their goal was to use him to prop up the authority of the Church. And so they DID!

Jesus wasn't there to object as they shoved their demagogurey in his mouth and made his lips move.

You've been duped Spider as has everyone who has fallen for this dogma.

It's not about Jesus.

It's all about USING Jesus to prop up the original bigotry that Jesus himself denounced.

Try reading between the lines for a change!

Your position is rejected by historians. The reason is this: The Gospels were written during the first century. People who had witnessed Jesus' crucifixion would have been rejected the gospels are written about that rejection. Nobody, not even the Jews argued this position during that time. The Jews accepted the claims that Jesus lived and taught what is recorded. The people of Jerusalem who were proselytized to would have rejected it based on their own personal understanding of Jesus. Your argument is specious. It's very common among those who don't understand the historicity of Jesus, but because he was a real man the gospels were written during their lifetimes, there would have been refutations written to the gospels. No such refutation exists.

Excuse me?

I too accept that Jesus lived and taught some of the things that have been recorded.

Clearly the Jews don't agree with all of it either.

To say that my position is wrong would be the same as to claim that all of Judism is wrong because they too denounce the divinity of Jesus.

Who are you trying to kid?

My position is totally in line with the beliefs of many scholars, as well as with religions like Judaism.

We may disagree on the details, but we are clearly in agreement that Jesus was not the son of the God of Abraham.

My claim is totally in line with both Judaism and Islam.

Although, I actually denounce both of those religions as well.

But the point is, that my claim is ast least as valid as theirs.

Your argumments don't even make any sense anymore Spider.

My proposed scenario is perfectly sound and reasonable.

In fact, I'm totally convinced of its truth.

The Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham.

And neither do the Muslims.

So on that point there are millions of people who would agree with me.

And both of those cultures have religions that grew out of the very same mythology. They are basically the same religion that has fallen into pieces.

Even those do did believe that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham have fallen into a myriad of differnt 'religions'.

They just claim to be all one religion under the title of "Christianity", because they have ONE THING in common.

They all believe that Jesus was the "Christ", the Son of the God of Abraham.

But they don't agree on much else after that single point.

They claim to be a "single religion", but in truth they are more diverse than all the other religions on Earth.

In fact, if the whole world were converted to "Christianity" that would only be the start of the real Holy Wars because no two Christians can agree on what it means to be a Christian other than to accept that Jesus was the Son of the God of Abraham.

After that, they too argue like dogs foaming at the mouth with rabies about what Jesus actually stood for and agreed with and what he didn't.

"Christianity" is a truly a JOKE. Because it is such an abstract and meaningless lable.

All it ulitmately means is that the person who is claiming to be a "Christian" believes that Jesus was the Son of the God of Abraham.

After that, it holds no meaning at all.

I think I understand "Chrsitianity" far better than you do.

You seem to think that it actually holds some sort of concrete value.

It doesn't.

No two "Christians" will agree on the moral details of the religion or what Jesus actually stood for.

And from that point of view, it's a totally meaningless religion.

They don't even all agree that to believe that Jesus was the Son of God will automatically save you.

Many Christians (including the Catholics, I think), believe that men can indeed be saved by grace through works.

Many Christians believe that anyone who simply lives life the way Jesus said, is automatically accepting Jesus even if they don't believe that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham.

There are many different beliefs held by the so-called "Christians".

I used to be a Christian at one time because at one time I accepted the idea that Jesus was "the Christ", the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham.

Now I am convinced that the God of Abraham was a myth and that Jesus was not the son of any such deity.

Now I believe in Jesus as a man.

Yet I STILL ACCEPT HIM!

How many Christians would accept Jesus as a mere mortal man?

Not many I imagine.

If they think he has nothing to offer them in the way of eternal life, they aren't interested.

They are only interested in him if he really was "GOD" and has something to offer THEM!

Most Christians would reject Jesus in a split second if they thought that all he had to offer them was the love of a mortal man.

I will admit some people have come up with tricky ways to argue a negative but none of these hold water. I would love to think that we lowly humans would be the favorites of some lofty being that has the power to create a universe of a magnitude we will never know but I am more humble than that. I know that we are yet one life form out of more than I can imagine that have evolved when the circumstances were right. That is all we are. We are no better than any other life form, different maybe, dominant maybe here on this planet but not in the universe I am sure.

So those who need to convince themselves that they are superior at some level will cling to these theories but I cannot because I am too humble to believe the hype.

I don't know. I guess it would depend on your personal definition of "God."

If "God" is some (non-human) being who rules this universe dishing out punishment for disobedience, (The wages of sin is death.) and then sends his son to die to pay for the sins of humans... er... I don't know if I can see my way clear to call that moral.

If you define "God" as "LOVE," and if you can show that moral values arise from Love, then you may have a point.

If no love existed, the (objective?) values do not exist.

(But I am not sure what you mean by "objective" values.)

So I guess I will have to reject your moral argument because it just is not specific or clear enough.

double post

Of course I do believe that God is real, and that Jesus Christ was/is the son of God, but for the sake of arguement, let's pretend for a second that Jesus wasn't the son of God, but rather, just another wanna be...

Gandhi wasn't the saviour, but I respect and accept his general teachings. They ring loud and clear of much universal truth and have much to offer.

Confucious wasn't the saviour, same deal...

And then there's everyone from Voltaire to Benjimin Franklin... Not a saviour amongst the whole lot of'm... yet they and their like spoke and endorsed many profound wisdoms and truths...

In my spiritual journey, I've started down many paths but thankfully I feel as though I've always had a a little warning buzzer that goes off before I got too far telling me "whoa Allen, this just ain't right... It's close to truth, but it's not the way..." Maybe it's my gift, I don't know...

When I fully began to understand Christ's sermon on the mount, that buzzer that never once failed me did NOT go off. In fact, just the opposit occured. I realized I just found perfection in his perfect teachings.
Now I'm not what most would consider "educated", nor am I all that inately wizened, but by the grace of God I knew for a fact that something was happening to me that I could never have gotten my mind around until I opened both my mind AND my heart. It wasn't until then that God's spirit began changing me into someone who COULD get his mind around it.
Anyone can say and think anything they like about my testimony. It matters not a wit...
I don't feel the need to prove God's existence or defend the divine truths of the holy bible. I can not be intimidated or villified into believing anything less than God is a living God and he has a plan that's way over our reckoning.
Jesus was NOT a student of Buddha. He was NOT a victim. He was God incarnate who gave us all a way to be saved from ourselves (our sin).

I can only believe wholeheartedly and with complete sincerity that part of his plan is to minister to the believers as well as the un-believers in this very forum.

No one can be talked out of or talked into their beliefs. God doesn't work that way. That's man's way, not his...

Anyone who spends much of their time even debating these things, whether they know it or accept it, IS being convicted in their hearts.

If you can't or won't try to get your mind around God, or the notion that Christ is the saviour, all I can say is never say never and if you're really absolutely convinced in the negative sense, ask yourself why you spend so much time debating it.
I don't believe in tooth fairies or Easter bunnies...anyone care for a debate?

I sure don't...

This is truly the reality of it.

That's an easy one.

I denounce Christianity because it preaches hatred, bigotry, and prejudice in the name of Jesus.

It's been historically proven to be determental to humanity.

It continues to threaten innocent loving people even today.

It's clearly an ungodly religion.

There is no excuse for it.

It's far from divine and has proven itself to be demonic time and time again throughout its entire history.

There's no question in my mind that it is ungodly and detrimental to humanity as a whole.

It's a cancer of the mind.

AllenAqua said,



We spend so much time debating it because every where you turn there is someone insisting that this is the truth and someone insisting that in order to be saved you must do this and accept this etc etc etc. blah blah blah blah...

Just imagine, for the sake of illustration about how much we non-Christians are surrounded by this; okay, imagine you could turn every single person who called them self "Christian" into a Zombie wandering the street.

How many Zombies do you think you would run into? Gobs, of them. They are everywhere.

That is what we non-Christians see everyday. Hundreds of these Zombies walking around with their eyes glazed over and their arms out looking for a good meal of non-zombie flesh.

If you gave all these zombies a town of their own, (like this club gave the Christians a forum of their own,) they would not stay in that town because they don't have a taste for other zombie flesh, they want non-zombie flesh.

Catch my drift? That's how non-zombies, er.. non Christians feel in this world and that is why we spend "so much time" debating the subject.

For you to have even asked that question tells me that you have no clue at all about what is going on around you in non-Christian land. You are one of the zombies. Metaphorically speaking that is.

But maybe, just maybe you will get a tiny inkling of how we feel and why we debate the subject. It is a little hard to ignore all the zombies.

And no one else feels the desire to promote their ideals and philosophies?

Everyone else is correct in their various beliefs but Christians?

The sign on the door says "Everyone but promoters of Christianity allowed thread" ?

It was a rhetorical question Miss Jeaniebean...

I fully understand why someone would choose not to believe in anything that might cramp their style, so to speak. All I'm saying is that in my very humble opinion, "me thinks thou dost protest too much"

Maybe I'm wrong and you're on the cutting edge of an ideal that's going to infinitly change the world for something infinitely better. If so, I'll be nothing but carbon atoms waiting to implode and won't care, but if I'm not and I just let folks espouse their vehemence against my faith unchallenged, I'll be called into account for not at least countering it to the best of my understanding and ability.
I hope that we ALL can be saved from nothingness and eternal darkness, but if that's where we're heading afterall(which I know in my heart isn't the case), well... your points as well as mine will be quite moot.

HAHAHA, that was great JB

Well said. I agree. Sometimes it takes a greater wisdom to admit we do not know.

This is actually quite a nice distinction JB.

So even if the idea that Objective morals exist and they spring from a intelligent source we must ask ourselves a few questions.

We must ask ourselves what does it mean to be a universally objective idea? It would mean that this idea would be innate to this intelligence. It could have no other nature in regards to this idea. This idea would be its nature by default and thus all of its creations would agree to this objective reality.

So if good, then never bad.
If bad then never good, or else its good sometimes and bad sometimes and thus arbitrary and not objective.

So a god that is the fountain of objective morality would be all good.

How does that jive with YOUR god?

allenaqua said:




Well the amount of "protest" is directly related to the amount of bull that is flying at us. Trust me, 90% of the time we just ignore it. Until it gets so absurd. Then you will find us verbalizing our disagreements and challenging your assertions. Which we are entitled to do as much as you are.

We love debate. If you want to actually debate you are all welcome to come to any thread and debate. What we protest against is proselytizing and preaching. That is not a discussion. It is just "NOISE."

And it is useless to try to discuss anything with noise. It is like talking to a wall. Or talking to a recording. It does not listen or discuss. It just repeats its rhetoric over and over.

Look at me, I'm talking to myself. But I know there are those who totally understand what I am saying.

Rationalizations.

Any post made by a Christian, which includes Christian philosophy or beliefs is responded to negatively. It doesn't matter if the poster is just simply offering an opinion, the reaction is the same. You can rationalize that you are doing it because of "preaching", but that doesn't make it true. And when you do your own fair share of preaching, it makes you a hypocrite.

Truly.

This very thread is "ARUGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD"

And what's the main argument?

Based on morals?

Christianity is the most immoral religion on the face of the planet!

All it does is teach people to become bigots in the name of God, and constantly proselyize for more people to join the bigots-for-Christ campaigne.

It's sickening.

If we're going to argue that a divine being might exist the very first thing we need to do is recognize that the Bible most certainly wouldn't have anything to do with God.

The Bible is a horror story of bigotry, murder, hatred toward heathens, and male-chauvinism.

It's the most hate-filled religion on planet Earth.

Clearly if we are going to argue for the existence of a God based on morality the Bible would be the FIRST THING we'd need to denounce as being ungodly and immoral.

Clearly the Bible is not from any divione being.

It's clearly a book that was written by a very crude and immoral culture who tried to use God as an excuse to do horrific things to their enemies. And to justify their male chuavinistic treatment of their women.

Anyone who thinks those things are divine has no sense of morality whatsoever.