What was the rebuttal to objective morality?

I wasn’t as focused on that topic but Abra and several other people had you pretty much pinched.

The argument is that your argument is logically flawed. There are a few things sociologist will refer to objective morality, most people won't do this or that. But you appear to attempt to equate objective morality to belief in a certain religious dogma. Which QED is already disproven. I do not have the hubris to say what happens after I die, does that mean I am going out raping and ing? Hmmm... er, I mean no I am not.

“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”

“Unless I see I will not believe”. This is how people who demand from us logical, tangible proof of the Christian faith often answer us, the faithful. But there are not and cannot be such proof, for the Christian faith is beyond the grasp of rational thought, being super-rational. Nothing in the Christian faith, be it the existence of God, the resurrection of Christ or other truths, can be proven logically: one can only accept them or reject them on the basis of faith.

“No one has seen God at any time”, writes John the Evangelist (Jn. 1:18). Nobody has ever proved the existence of God. And nobody has ever born witness to the resurrection of Christ in such a way that it might become an obvious fact for all of mankind. Nevertheless, regardless of the seeming lack of proofs of the Christian faith, millions of people came, still come and will come to Christ; they believed, believe and will believe in His resurrection; they accepted, accept and will accept the existence of God. Why? Because they encountered God in their lives, and no additional proofs were necessary for them.

How does this encounter with God take place? It is different for each person. For some it occurs as an unexpected revelation and vision, when people suddenly realize that God is right next to them, that He sees and hears them, and they see and hear Him. For others it happens as a gradual acknowledging of the risen Christ, when the sense of God’s presence grows in them to such an extent that they come to believe. Christ also reaches out to people and knocks on the doors of their hearts, but sometimes they do not realize this or only later do they begin to understand that what they had experienced was an encounter with God. This is exactly what happened to the two disciples returning from Jerusalem to Emmaus, who did not recognize Jesus in the traveler they had met on the way since His appearance after the resurrection had changed. The Lord conversed with them during their entire journey, entered the house with them, and only when He was breaking bread did they recognize Him. But immediately He became invisible. The disciples then said: “Did not our hearts burn within us while He talked with us on the way?” (Lk. 24:32). With joy they went and told the disciples of their encounter with the risen Lord.

It is striking that the disciples did not recognize Christ when He was next to them. Their physical eyes did not help them to see the risen God. But with the inner eyes of their soul they recognized Him. As soon as they knew this, He became invisible to them, for physical sight is not necessary when the heart is alive with faith.

That is what happened and happens to Christians when they come to believe in God. They have not seen Him, but their hearts are aflame with love for Him. Christ spoke about such people when He said: “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe” (Jn. 20:29). They are blessed, for they did not seek logical proofs, but the fire which God places in people’s hearts.

We believe in the resurrection of Christ not because somebody convinced us of it, but because we ourselves have come to know the Risen Christ through our inner experience. We have come to believe not because we saw God, but because we have felt His real presence in our hearts.

The skeptical mind of contemporary man says: “Unless I see I will not believe”. But we say: “I believe even though I do not see”. If everything in religion were visible, tangible and provable, why and in what would we need to believe? If there were not any mysteries in religion, how would it be different from everything else in our earthly life?

(1 Tim. 1:19). We have not been promised a face-to-face encounter with Christ or the chance to touch His wounds and receive the palpable evidence of Christ’s resurrection which Thomas was granted. Of course, in the age to come we will see Christ face-to-face, but this is just another thing that we must believe in! For the time being we have been given the inner experience of the risen Christ, an experience that is stronger than any logical proofs or any physical “seeing”.

Why has this experience been given to us, Christians? So that we may share it with others. We should remember that until the world comes to believe in Christ’s resurrection, until the risen Lord becomes the experience of all people, Christ’s mission on earth will not be completed. And just as the apostles went and preached Christ after His resurrection, so are we called to preach Him through our entire lives, not just in word, but in deeds.

We are called to continue the work of the apostles who, though they did not see the resurrection of Christ with their physical eyes, nevertheless saw Him with the eyes of their souls. Let us remember that the following words of the Savior were addressed not only to them, but also to us: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen” (Mt. 28:20).

And then you made that ridiculous remark about rape and murder not being wrong and you pretty much lost all credibility from that point on and several began to view you as a loose cannon.

I've already refuted it completely.

You're argument is that there are objective morals.

I state the following:

Most sane humans will agree that to murder some man's wife and children because of what the man believes would be totally immoral.

However, the Biblical God commands that people murder the wives and children of heathens without mercy.

In fact, the Biblical God himself has done just that in the Great Flood killing all the innocent babies of the heathens.

Therefore most sane humans totally disagree with the moral standard offered by the Bible.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Christians would even confess that they don't think it's right to murder the wife and children of a man just because of that man's belief.

Therefore we have the vast majority of humans disagreeing with the morality of the Bible.

Unless of course, you're going to argue that the vast majority of people would condone murdering the wife and chilren of a man based solely on the beliefs of the man.

Clearly the Bible is out if we apply the concept of 'moral objectivity'.

So the moral argument has already been completely shattered.

You've just been ignoring my posts because you can't refute them and you're determined to ignore any evidence that refutes your claim.

You moral arguments have been blown completely out of the water.

I am not arguing for the Bible right now. That is for a different thread. You obviously believe in objective morality. "By “objective” I mean “valid and binding whether anybody believes in them or not.” For example, to say that the Holocaust was objectively wrong is to say that it was wrong even though the Nazis who carried it out thought that it was right, and it would still have been wrong even if the Nazis had won World War II and succeeded in brainwashing or exterminating everyone who disagreed with them. Many atheists and theists alike agree that if God does not exist as a transcendent anchor point, then the moral values and duties that have evolved in human society are not objective in that way."

Of course there are things that are wrong. You don't need god to tell you that and he very often not only is not a deterrent but an instigator.

In fact, as with the Nazis, they viewed God as "on their side."

Well, you're idea is to argue for "God" based on objective morality.

First all, the Mediterranean picture of God is about the only religion that demands that God has objective morals.

So by stating that you are arguing for the existence of God, based on arguments of moral objectivity this automatically implies the Mediterranean picture. No other religions have objective morals.

Thus your argument that Hitler's holocaust was objectively immoral would actually suggest that humans have different morals from the Biblical God, because the Bible can indeed be used to justify Hitler's mass slaughter of the Jews as heathens.

Jesus himself said that he did not come to change the laws, not one jot or one tittle.

Well, if the laws weren't changed then the old laws of the God of Abraham hold. And the God of Abraham clearly commanded people to murder heathens in many places throughout the Old Testament. He also did this very thing himself when he created the Great Flood.

So your argument for "objective morality" clearly rules out the Biblical God.

So what other picture of God are you arguing for on the grounds of objective morality?

How are you defining "God" in your argument?

If you don't have a definition for "God", then how can you be claiming to be arguing for the existence of God based on objective morality?

First you need to have a God who claims to have an objective morality?

Otherwise the argument is moot.

It is COMMON knowledge that the Nazis were heavily into the occult
Both the History Channel and Discovery Channel have done documentaries seen by millions
Christianity and occult are opposites



by Hannah Newman -- freeway@netvision.net.il


"Creation is not finished. Man is clearly approaching a phase of metamorphosis. The earlier human species has already reached the stage of dying out.... All of the force of creation will be concentrated in a new species... [which] will surpass infinitely modern man.... Do you understand now the profound meaning of our National Socialist movement?" (Adolf Hitler, quoted by Hermann Rauschning, _Hitler ma'a dit [Hitler Speaks]_ p.147, translated in _The Occult and the Third Reich_, Jean & Michel Angebert, p.178.)
"You'll think I'm crazy, but listen to me: Hitler will bring us to a catastrophe. But his ideas, once they have been transformed, will acquire a new strength." (Joseph Goebbels to his aide-de-camp, Prince Schaumburg-Lippe, quoted in Angeberts, p.234)

Nazism and the New Age

While most Jews are sure that Hitler represented the Christian community, his associates knew better. In this section we see not only that Hitler rejected Christianity, but that there is also ample research showing that Hitler founded far more than a political regime - the Third Reich was an occult-based religious movement to usher in the same New Age examined in this series. [For documentation besides the Angeberts, see also D. Sklar, _The Nazis and the Occult_; Joseph Carr, _The Twisted Cross_; Robert G.L. Waite, _The Psychopathic God - Adolf Hitler_; Gerald Suster, _Adolf Hitler, The Occult Messiah_; Trevor Ravenscroft, _The Spear of Destiny_.]

The Nazi President of the Danzig Senate, Hermann Rauschning (who defected to the Allies and in 1939 wrote the book quoted above), recorded statements made by Hitler which are unintelligible except from a NA orientation. [The fact that Rauschning included quotes which he admitted he did not understand only adds to the credibility of his testimony, for these often turn out to be occultic references of the kind meant to be understood by fellow-initiates alone.]

[One of the best sources I have seen is the Angeberts' book quoted above. The strength of their work is ironically due to their positive attitude toward the occult: it appears they rather admire the "Ancient Wisdom" as expressed in Gnosticism, Catharism and other esoteric movements, and they trace its threads through history with nostalgia as well as academic interest. Their far-ranging documentation allows them to conclusively show that Nazism was/is an initiation into the classical Gnostic "path of enlightenment", but unlike me the authors do not fault the "Ancient Wisdom" itself for the infamous results. On the contrary, "the prime lesson to be learned is that the practice of occultism and magic is fraught with danger and, therefore, not to be entrusted to just anyone." (p.160) This book is valuable for its uninhibited look at the many movements and occultists - including unlikely names like Plato, Nietzsche, Goethe and Pythagorus - who shared Hitler's dream of the Holy Grail and a new-age return of the ancient Hyperborean godmen with their "sacred sciences". The English publisher is MacMillan (1974), McGraw-Hill (1975) in paperback.]

Hitler turned against Christianity from his early teens and sought his destiny in the occult. He later joined with associates who also embraced those teachings, and together they built a state guided by the same occultic principles and goals repeated in today's NA. And no wonder, because he drew on the same esoteric sources as the NAers of today. [How have so many scholars overlooked this all-important key to understanding the Nazi mentality? In the words of the Angeberts' English translator, Lewis A.M. Sumberg, nearly all historians missed the "militant neo-Paganism" and "Gnostic racism" in Nazism "because they have brought conventional outlooks and methodologies to their examination of an unconventional phenomenon." (_The Occult and the Third Reich_, p.x) We must either re-assess the Nazi philosophy with these roots exposed, or be forced to settle for theories which fail to completely explain Nazi priorities. Its unconventional nature lay in "magic thought allied to science and know-how" (Angeberts, p.179) - exactly the hybrid being encouraged today by NA leaders like Peter Russell. Sumberg's observation in 1974 about this blind spot among historians fell mostly on deaf ears, which makes it more difficult now - but more urgent than ever - to recognize that not only is Nazism not dead, we are now surrounded by a "kinder, gentler" version of the same philosophy, sprouted from the same roots and having the same priorities.]

1. Hitler and the Occult

According to available sources (see above), Hitler first made contact in 1909 with other occultists, the first of these being Goerg Lanz von Lieberfels and Guido von List, after coming across their occultic-racist magazine _Ostara_ in Vienna. (Sklar, p.5. For samples of the typical copy published in _Ostara_, and how Hitler later echoes it, see p.17-22) Besides his publishing activities, Lanz was known for starting a society called the "Order of New Templars" which imitated the traditions of occultic Grail lore. (Angeberts, p.237) Lanz would later claim credit for influencing Nazi ideology - a claim which has some merit considering that one of his books was found in Hitler's personal library (now archived in the Library of Congress in Washington, DC). As for List, he founded the "Armanen", a Germanic pagan priestly order which apparently accepted Hitler into their brotherhood; evidence is in another occultic book from Hitler's library bearing an inscription from a comrade to Adolf, "my dear Armanen brother." (Sklar, p.48) Books by List were found stamped with the insignia of the SS Ahnenerbe (the Nazi Ancestral Research division), indicating that his teachings were studied by SS candidates. (As an aside, Angeberts note that the documents dealing with the Ahnenerbe itself, which they identify as "the Nazi Occult Bureau", are listed in the U.S. National Archives but for some reason are not available to researchers - p.259-260) Both Lanz and List were obsessed with blood purity, the Jewish threat, Grail legends and a "new world order". Both embraced the swastika as a central symbol, borrowing it from Hindu mysticism. [see comments below]

By 1913, Adolf had passed the novice stage in his occult pursuits. (Carr, p.95) In 1918 (age 29) he claimed to hear voices announcing that he was "selected by God to be Germany's messiah" (Carr, p.36); later he made contact with an "ascended master" whom he identified as Lucifer or "the beast from the pit". He eventually became convinced he was the reincarnation of Woden (or, Woton). At some point, he discovered two German occultists who eloquently expressed his own understanding of Aryan religion and destiny: Richard Wagner [details later] and Friedrich Nietzsche. These influenced Nazi thought so heavily that the authors of _The Occult and the Third Reich_ name them as "the two prime initiators of the Third Reich", (p.119) and devote two entire chapters to documenting this claim. To these can be added a third, who lived before Hitler and tried to weld Wagnerian and Nietzschean thought into one work: the British occultist Houston Stewart Chamberlain, who wrote in his epic _Foundations of the Nineteenth Century_ (1900): "Every Mystic is, whether he will or not, a born Anti-Semite." (Sklar, p.11)

Another occultist to influence Hitler's thinking was Dr. Karl Haushofer, who was introduced to Hitler in 1924 while the latter was in Landsberg prison. Haushofer, a Blavatsky disciple, combined a dubious "science" called "geopolitics" with Eastern mystical texts and _The Secret Doctrine_ principles, and claimed to have clairvoyant powers. It was Haushofer who schooled Hitler in _The Secret Doctrine_. (Carr, p.93) His geopolitical theories found their way into _Mein Kampf_. (Sklar, p.62) It was also Haushofer who forged Hitler's alliance with Japan basing his case on astrological predictions (Sklar, p.69), and who gave him the "Lebensraum" concept. As the Nazi conquest advanced, Haushofer applied his theories through prophecies which overruled the military leadership in directing troop movements. (Sklar, p.69) Besides Hitler, Haushofer had other prominent disciples: Rudolf Hess, later to become Hitler's secretary; and Anton LaVey, who gained notoriety in later years for his promotion of Satanism. LaVey dedicated his work _The Satanic Bible_ in part to "Karl Haushofer, a teacher without a classroom." (Sklar, p.63) Haushofer's fortunes fell, however, when his son Albrecht conspired in the 1944 coup against Hitler and was arrested; father Karl was sent to Dachau.

Hitler, like today's NA philosophers, firmly believed in the coming of a new species of humanity. Like modern New Agers, he expected them to be a literal "mutation" of homo sapiens, achieved by arriving at "higher levels of consciousness". He also believed that the new humanity would be free of "the dirty and degrading chimera called conscience and morality," as well as "the burden of free will" and "personal responsibility" which should rightly be borne only by the few with the fortitude to make the awful decisions necessary for the good of humanity. (Sklar, p.58)

Hitler's associate, Bernhard Forster (who happened to be Nietzsche's brother-in-law) related to Hermann Rauschning how Hitler had proclaimed that he "would bring the world a new religion,... the blessed consciousness of eternal life in union with the great universal life... when the time came. Hitler would be the first to achieve what Christianity was meant to have been, [without] any fear of death [or] the fear of a so-called bad conscience. Hitler would restore men to the self-confident divinity with which nature had endowed them." Forster then added his own opinion: "He drew his great power from intercourse with the eternal divine nature." (Sklar, p.54-55) [The reader should note the familiar "cosmic consciousness" vocabulary here, more appropriate to the founder of a religion than to a political schemer.]

The Nazi sacred symbols and concepts - the swastika or "gamma cross", the eagle, the red/black/white color scheme, and ancient Nordic runes (one of which became the insignia of the SS ) - were all adopted from occult traditions going back centuries, shared by Brahmins, Scottish Masons, Rosicrucians, Manichaeans and others. (Angeberts give detailed histories, p.194-200) The Nazi motto, "One Reich, One Folk, One Fuehrer", reflected the standard 3-fold power circles of the occult. (See a good example in Bailey's _Discipleship in the New Age_ II, p.165, where the Great Invocation is to be explained on three distinct levels.) The Reich was the psychic adepts of the Nazi Party, which would build the bridge between the Folk (the masses which unite into a cosmic Entity greater than its parts) and the Fuehrer (the initiates in the elite leadership which unite with Hitler, the divine incarnation). The outer fringe, the Folk, are taught what they can handle: blind obedience, group service, a new history and identity. The Party elite such as the SS are taught something different: psychic knowledge, tapping into the "Vril Force", self-denial, brotherhood mission, medieval lore, fearlessness of death. The innermost circle was privy to the hard-core Gnostic teaching on the Grail, immortality and godhood. Many neo-Nazi groups continue to pursue these topics with devotion. But under it all was the invisible presence of "Unknown Superiors" (Angeberts, p.178, quoting Rudolf Olden, _Hitler the Pawn_, written 1936. Rauschning used the same term - p.233) who taught Hitler himself and who were assumed by his associates to endow him with his uncanny hypnotic power.

Concerning Hitler's relationship with these Unknowns, there is not much known besides his reference to a guiding voice of "Providence". However, we do have a vivid account related by an unnamed associate of Hitler to Rauschning (both were not sure what to make of it), in which Hitler wakes up in the middle of the night in total panic at some unseen visitation: "Hitler was standing there in his bedroom, stumbling about, looking around him with a distraught look. He was muttering: 'It's him! It's him! He's here!' His lips had turned blue. He was dripping with sweat. Suddenly he uttered some numbers which made no sense, then some words, then bits of sentences. It was frightening. He used terms which were strung together in the strangest way and which were absolutely weird. Then, he again became silent, although his lips continued to move. He was given a massage and something to drink. Then all of a sudden, he screamed: 'There! Over there! In the corner! Who is it?' He was jumping up and down, and he was howling." (Rauschning, p.285-286) [Whatever the reader may conclude about the Unknown Superiors, whether a figment of a sick mind or real entities, please remember that both Nazi cosmology and NA religion view(ed) them as real and independent beings - and also as extensions of one's own untapped divinity. No provision is made in either system for the possibility of ascended beings who first seduce their channels and then torment them. Yet stories similar to the above are not uncommon in NA circles. From those who leave the New Age after such an experience, the verdict is uniform: the Guides are clever deceivers with evil motives. For those who stay, the solution is to blame oneself for the "bad trip" and blindly dive in deeper; this was apparently Hitler's choice.]

Hitler's personal devotion to occult principles was proven ultimately by his self-inflicted death. His choice of April 30 for his suicide may well have been meant as a sacrifice; it was the eve of Beltane (known in Germany as Walpurgisnacht), identified on popular Wiccan websites as a Druid feast in honor of the deity Bel. In witchcraft, this "power-point" day is regarded as a "great sabbat" equal in potency to Halloween. According to Wiccans, Bel is derived from the Canaanite Baal; but Helena Blavatsky goes farther in _The Secret Doctrine_ (vol.2), reconstructing an astrological trinity of Bel/Baal (sun-god, father), Christos (Mercury, son) and Lucifer (Venus, holy spirit). [more on the Lucifer connection in "Gods of the New Age"] As for Hitler's suicide itself, this was not a cowardly act from an occultist viewpoint, but rather an honorable practice known among the Druids, as well as among the Cathari "Perfects", those medieval guardians of the Grail, who called it the rite of "Endura". A curious requirement of the "Endura" was that it was always to be done by pairs of intimate friends, a detail known by the Nazis (Angeberts p.28) which makes sense of Hitler's joint suicide with his new wife Eva Braun. Incidently, Hitler's associates Karl Haushofer and Goebbels also killed themselves in ceremonial fashion along with their wives. (Angeberts, p.275, note 11)

2. Hitler and Christianity

Not only did Hitler regard Christianity as a defective, failed enterprise, he saw himself as replacing both its God and its Christ. At one of the huge Nuremberg rallies hung a gigantic poster of himself, with the caption stolen from the Christian gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word." German youth were indoctrinated from infancy to pray to Hitler, who they were taught was sent from heaven to protect them. (Sklar, p.56) Nazi-approved sermons in German churches proclaimed, "Adolf Hitler is the voice of Jesus Christ." And lest some readers [especially Jews] should conclude from this that Nazi Christians viewed Hitler as the mouthpiece of the New Testament Jesus, the statement is clarified to leave no doubt: "If Jehovah has lost all meaning for us Germans, the same must be said of Jesus Christ, his son.... He [Jesus] certainly lacks those characteristics which he would require to be a true German. Indeed, he is as disappointing, if we read the record carefully, as is his father [the G-d of Israel according to Christian tradition]." ("What the Christian Does Not Know About Christianity", quoted by Sklar, p.56)

In Hitler's words, Christianity "only added the seeds of decadence such as forgiveness, self-abnegation, weakness, false humility and the very denial of the evolutionary laws of survival of the fittest [social Darwinism]," and would obviously be a handicap to the new species which he was personally commissioned by the "masters" to see properly birthed and nurtured. But Hitler perceptively placed the ultimate blame where it is due: "Conscience is a Jewish invention. It is a blemish, like circumcision.... There is no such thing as truth, either in the moral or in the scientific sense. The new man would be the antithesis of the Jew." (Sklar, p. 57-58) Nietzsche likewise considered the Christian Bible nearly worthless because of its Jewish origin: "In Christianity, seen as the art of sacred lying, we're back with Judaism.... The Christian is but a Jew of more liberal persuasion." (_Antichrist_, quoted in Angeberts, p.126) [Compare with the NA view of how Judaism "defiled" Christianity.] In this context, antisemitism was not a starting point for the inner Nazi society as it was for the masses; Jew-hatred was the inevitable result of absorbing these bedrock occult teachings.

The nurture of the new humanity included the need to "encourage the growth of a violent, domineering, intrepid, cruel youth... nothing weak or tender in it." (Angeberts, p.209, Rauschning quoting Hitler) This reached its climax in SS training, and it corresponded to the Nazi view of "pure" Gnostic, Hindu and Buddhist philosophy, which did not teach compassion and gentleness, but Aryan duty and honor above all (Angeberts, p.220-221). [This would seem confirmed by the presence of Tibetan Buddhists in Hitler's Berlin, as well as Bailey's prediction that Buddhism is destined to drop its image of gentle pacifism.]

But there was an obstacle to sweeping away the Jew and raising this cruel new generation, in the person of that "Jew of more liberal persuasion", the Bible-believing Christian. Knowing that Christian Germany would not easily accept an open return to paganism, Nazism attempted to wean the masses from standard Christianity by removing the Jewish-influenced "negative" parts, that is the Old Testament and most of the New Testament, imposing gnostic meanings on key passages, adding colorful pagan legend, and repackaging it in their 1920 platform as "positive Christianity" (Angeberts, p.202-203). [This term is freely used today by many groups, some of them fervent NAers offering the same package to naive Christians, for the same purpose.]

Hitler's vision of returning to "pure" pagan religion was echoed, or more accurately anticipated, by psychoanalyst Carl Jung in 1923: "We [Germans] need new foundations. We must dig down to the primitive in us, for only out of the conflict between civilized man and the Germanic barbarian will there come what we need: a new experience of God." (Sklar, p.134) When esotericist Jakov Wilhelm Hauer founded the Nordic Faith movment, Jung urged participation on the part of Germans who were "intelligent enough not only to believe but to know that the god of the Germans is Wotan and not the Christian God." ("Wotan", essay by Jung - emphasis his, quoted by Sklar, p.134) The Nazis reciprocated by making Jung President of the German Medical Society for Psychotherapy in 1933, at which time he finally found a forum from which to expound a belief he had held since 1918: the need to distinguish between "German" and "Jewish" psychology. (The Society's Dec. 1933 issue) In his view, such a distinction was not antisemitic, it was liberating for both Aryans and Jews. (Sklar 136-137) When the Jews were fleeing Nazi Germany in ever-increasing numbers, Jung advised his followers in England to keep up their "negative feelings" about Jews and resist allowing them to participate as colleagues, as he also did. [See further details about Jung in Harvard Professor Richard Noll's books.] As for the destruction being wreaked by the Nazis, Noll notes that Jung viewed them as the necessary precursors to the great "light", those whose task was to destroy to make "rebirth" possible. [Compare with Bailey's assessment below.] It took until 1945 for Jung to finally denounce the Nazi extermination of the Jews, but he never retracted his proposal for a "Germanic, Jew-free psychotherapy". (Sklar, p.138-139)

To remove the "bad seeds" of Christian (that is, Jewish) thinking, Nazi preparation of children for the new humanity would be diligent from cradle to grave, centered around the notion that they were born to die for their god, wmbodied in their Fuehrer. The education began with revised fairy tales teaching new-humanity principles of heroes struggling and dying to set their race free. Then group membership started at age 10, followed by continuous reinforcement in group settings for the remainder of their lives, "so that they shall in no case suffer a relapse, and they don't feel free again as long as they live," as Hitler bluntly put it. (Sklar, p.110) There was non-stop activity which required passive participation, allowing no time for reflection or discussion.

And what did Christian leaders think of Hitler? Although many Christians eventually bought into "positive Christianity", apparently there was enough opposition to necessitate an early purge of that community. Before launching his "final solution", Hitler made an effort to remove all churches and pastors who showed the least resistance to policies already in operation. For example, refusal by a church to sponsor a Hitler Youth chapter was sufficient grounds to close it down. Leaders whose integrity would not yield to political expediency, who could not be discredited by scandal, and who had the potential to influence Christians at large, were imprisoned indefinitely (Dietrich Bonnhoefer for example). Although Hitler did not close down many Catholic churches, especially where local support was strong, he vented his rage on Pope Pius XI, who had issued an encyclical condemning him as "a prophet of nothingness". ("Mit Brennender Sorge", March 14, 1937, translation posted by Paul Halsall of Fordham University) The Nazi government lodged a harsh protest with the Vatican shortly afterward (April 12, 1937 - see Georg May, _Kirchenkampf oder Katholikenverfolgung_, p.582). [I would suspect that the most damaging statements in "Mit Brennender Sorge" for the Nazis were those which exposed their "religious war" against the legacy of Judaism found in Christianity. Pius XI flatly equated Nazism with "aggressive paganism", condemned the removal of the Old Testament from churches and schools as an act of someone who "blasphemes the name of God", and reaffirmed the Jewish Bible as "sacred books" which "record the story of the chosen people, bearers of the Revelation and the Promise". The Catholic leader summarily rejected the anti-Jewish dogmas of "race and blood [and] the irradiations of a people's history" as "false coins [which] do not deserve Christian currency". See the end of the next entry, 2a, for related observations

Adolph Hitler was a Catholic. Most any reputable historian will hold this view.

People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .

Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922


Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.

Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.

Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace.

The following quotes provides some of Hitler's expressions of his belief in religion, faith, fanaticism, Providence, and even a few of his paraphrasing of the Bible. It by no means represents the totality of Hitler's concerns. To realize the full context of these quotes, I implore the reader to study Mein Kampf.

The purpose of this text intends to dispute the claims made by Christians that Hitler "was an atheist," or "anti-religious," and to reveal the dangers of belief-systems. This text in no way attempts to give endorsement to anti-Semitism.

Quotations from Mein Kampf



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Volume 1, Chapter 1, In the House of My Parents



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Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Note: "Their sword will become our plow" appears to paraphrase Micah 4:3 about beating swords into ploughshares, but his tears of war more resembles Joel 3:9-10 "Beat your plowshares into swords."



I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still remains with me. Woods and meadows were the battlefields on which the 'conflicts' which exist everywhere in life were decided.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



Only a handful of Germans in the Reich had the slightest conception of the eternal and merciless struggle for the German language, German schools, and a German way of life. Only today, when the same deplorable misery is forced on many millions of Germans from the Reich, who under foreign rule dream of their common fatherland and strive, amid their longing, at least to preserve their holy right to their mother tongue, do wider circles understand what it means to be forced to fight for one's nationality.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)





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Volume 1, Chapter 2, Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna



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Fate must bring retribution, unless men conciliate Fate while there is still time. How thankful I am today to the Providence which sent me to that school!

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



Thus my faith grew that my beautiful dream for the future would become reality after all, even though this might require long years.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



The more the linguistic Babel corroded and disorganized parliament, the closer drew the inevitable hour of the disintegration of this Babylonian Empire, and with it the hour of freedom for my German-Austrian people.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



Not until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any frequency, partly in connection with political discussions.... For the Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I maintained my rejection of religious attacks in this case as in others. Consequently, the tone, particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought.

At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Note: Karl Lueger (1844-1910) belonged as a member of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party, he became mayor of Vienna and kept his post until his death.)



The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times.

-Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger of the Christian Social Party (Mein Kampf)



How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement!

My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

What the? Am I a Jew and didnt know it?

In looking at your information, I can’t as yet find one actual quote made by Hitler himself.

Also, I just looked on both the Discovery Channel and the History Channel websites and could not find anything that linked Hitler to the occult specifically. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, only that I’m having trouble locating it. I ask because I watch the History Channel often. Discovery not as much.

Not bloody likley.

Myth 3: Hitler got his ideas of Aryan superiority and Jewish hatred from Darwinian evolution

Hitler showed no knowledge of Darwinian evolution or natural selection. Nowhere in Mein Kampf does he mention Darwin, natural-selection or even the word "evolution" (in the context of natural selection).

As for Aryan superiority and his Jewish hatred, Hitler clearly describes in Mein Kampf how he slowly began to change his mind about the Jews from the influence of the anti-Semitic movement of the Christian Social Party. His views with regard to anti-Semitism he said, "succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all." (read volume 1, chapter 2). Nowhere does he explain his anti-Jewish beliefs in Darwinian terms.

In his private notes, where he describes the Bible as a "Monumental History of Mankind," Hitler outlines his views of the Aryan and the Jew, all in the context of Bible reasoning, never in the context of Darwinian natural selection.

Moreover, Hitler viewed progeny, not in regards to evolution but in terms of blood lines (a Biblical view). He peppered his writings and speeches with "blood" words. Examples in Mein Kampf include:

"One blood demands one Reich."

"Bavarian by blood, technically Austrian, lived my parents..."

...the German in Austria had really been of the best blood..."

"...the weakness of leadership will not cause a hibernation of the state, but an awakening of all the individual instincts which are present in the blood..."

Clearly, Hitler had no scientific sophistication or an understanding of Darwin's theory of evolution and his "blood-line" explanation of human "progress" reveals a Biblical view, not a Darwinian view. He did, however, at times express ideas, not from Darwin, but rather from Herbert Spencer's concept of Social Darwinism, which has little to do with natural selection and served as an adjunct to his already established religious views. Spencer's Social Darwinism tried to connect Darwin's biological theory with the field of social relations. The result of Social Darwinism resulted in many eugenics programs that began in America and adopted by the Nazis. [Note that Darwin never expressed the idea that natural selection could extend from biological systems to social systems.]

Hitler best sums up his belief of Aryan superiority and his stand against the Jews with his declaration in Mein Kampf:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

Myth 4: Hitler followed Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy

If Hitler followed Nietzschian philosophy or even admired his work, then where does he describe him or his philosophy?

Nowhere in Mein Kampf does Hitler even mention Nietzsche, or Nietzchian terms such as superman (uberman), or super race. Of course Hitler did think the Aryan's represented a superior race to the Jews, but never in Nietzchian terms.

Note that Joseph-Arthur de Gobineau invented the theory of the superior Aryan race in the 1800s in his book, An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races. Gobineau believed that racial mixture would bring about the decline of "superior" peoples. Gobineau influenced Richard Wagner (beloved by Hitler), and Houston Stewart Chamberlain (whom Hitler read and met), both of who influenced early National Socialism (and both mentioned in Mein Kampf). Popular in Germany in the 1900s, many Germans accepted Gobineau's ideas and, no doubt, influenced Hitler either directly or indirectly. Moreover, Hitler's "superior" race ideas sound like a combination of Biblical race laws and Gobineau's Aryan race ideas, but not at all like Nietzsche.

Nor does it make sense that the Christian Hitler would admire an atheistic Nietzsche. Hitler loathed atheism. In his writings and speeches, he admonished atheists. For example:

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith.
We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement,
and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
Perhaps the most notorious misrepresentation of connecting Hitler and Nietzsche came from a photo-op of Hitler visiting the Nietzsche archive. Many have incorrectly believed that Hitler visited the archive on his own volition. Not so. The photo-op idea came from Nietzsche's sister, Elisabeth Förster, a wealthy Nazi supporter, who established the Nietzsche Archive in 1933, It was she who invited Hitler (after much persuasion) to visit the archive for publicity purposes. Hitler visited the archive exactly once and only for political purposes to appease Nietzsche's anti-Semite sister. The event appeared in the German newspapers and William Shirer (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) briefly mentioned the event as if Hitler often visited the archive because he admired Nietzsche. Shirer probably got his information from the German news article rather than from the facts of the event. (Note, scholars have criticized Shirer for his lack of scholarship and poor source material.) Elisabeth Förster also misrepresented Nietzsche by making her brother look like an anti-Semite and a proto-Nazi (Nietzsche's philosophy had little resemblance to the National Socialist German Workers' Party). Unfortunately many Germans fell for the Nietzsche-Nazi connection including many members of the Thule society.

The pre-Nazi Thule society began in the early 1900s. Rudolf von Serbottendorff became the driving force of this order which practiced occultism and an admiration of Nietzsche. Many members of the Thule society later became Nazis and did influence Nazi literature. However, Hitler never showed any interest in the Thule cult or in its pagan practices.

Anyone who uses such material to justify a Hitler-Nietzsche link simply lacks historical depth (laziness of research) and has no understanding of Hitler.

Let's face it; Hitler showed no philosophical sophistication. If any philosopher had an influence on him, it probably came from Schopenhuer (which he does briefly mention in Mein Kampf). Hans Frank, Hitler's personal lawyer, recalled that Hitler carried a copy of Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation with him throughout World War I, but Hitler never revealed any appreciation of Friedrich Nietzsche or his philosophy.

You're citing a quote from 1922 and claiming that Hitler was a practicing Christian! Who are you trying to kid? Hitler was a disciple of Darwin - not Jesus.

Another blind fool. Read much history?



Wrong again. You left abortion out of your equation. More death's caused by abortion since it's "legalization" than all of the worlds religious wars combined. Abortion is purely an "atheist supported causeof death".

He used Darwin's origin of the species to support his view. As did Stalin.

Not bloody likley.

Myth 3: Hitler got his ideas of Aryan superiority and Jewish hatred from Darwinian evolution

Hitler showed no knowledge of Darwinian evolution or natural selection. Nowhere in Mein Kampf does he mention Darwin, natural-selection or even the word "evolution" (in the context of natural selection).

As for Aryan superiority and his Jewish hatred, Hitler clearly describes in Mein Kampf how he slowly began to change his mind about the Jews from the influence of the anti-Semitic movement of the Christian Social Party. His views with regard to anti-Semitism he said, "succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all." (read volume 1, chapter 2). Nowhere does he explain his anti-Jewish beliefs in Darwinian terms.

In his private notes, where he describes the Bible as a "Monumental History of Mankind," Hitler outlines his views of the Aryan and the Jew, all in the context of Bible reasoning, never in the context of Darwinian natural selection.

Moreover, Hitler viewed progeny, not in regards to evolution but in terms of blood lines (a Biblical view). He peppered his writings and speeches with "blood" words. Examples in Mein Kampf include:

"One blood demands one Reich."

"Bavarian by blood, technically Austrian, lived my parents..."

...the German in Austria had really been of the best blood..."

"...the weakness of leadership will not cause a hibernation of the state, but an awakening of all the individual instincts which are present in the blood..."

Clearly, Hitler had no scientific sophistication or an understanding of Darwin's theory of evolution and his "blood-line" explanation of human "progress" reveals a Biblical view, not a Darwinian view. He did, however, at times express ideas, not from Darwin, but rather from Herbert Spencer's concept of Social Darwinism, which has little to do with natural selection and served as an adjunct to his already established religious views. Spencer's Social Darwinism tried to connect Darwin's biological theory with the field of social relations. The result of Social Darwinism resulted in many eugenics programs that began in America and adopted by the Nazis. [Note that Darwin never expressed the idea that natural selection could extend from biological systems to social systems.]

Hitler best sums up his belief of Aryan superiority and his stand against the Jews with his declaration in Mein Kampf:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

Eljay, if you had even bothered to read the thread, every one of your "arguments" had been rebutted. Well, your one liners that is.