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| Topic: Three Words Fundamentalist Christians Can’t Say | |
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there is a God......and he created the universe    |
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Excessive use of emoticons.
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there is a God......and he created the universe Got proof to back up that claim? prove that he didn't !... |
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 As Abra mentioned in an earlier post, "Square one sound familiar?" |
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Eljay said:
What is a "fundamentalist christain"? Is that like a breed of some sort? Like a poodle or bulldog... Well yes, except poodles generally wont accuse other poodles and German Shepard of being insincere or not having proof that their dog bowl exists. 
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Eljay, Atheists are not in a position to have to prove anything. They make no claims other than the fact that they dont see the point in worship of a godhead. That would include any sort of mystical concept of a creator and not just the god of the bible. Its not as if they single out Christians. They do very often take the position however that people are routinely killed in the name of these world religions and they are fed up with that. Not only that but Atheists aren't out to proselytize their agenda and convert the world to atheism. Christians are desperate to convert the world to Christianity. They are constantly proselytizing the religion trying to convince everyone to believe that the Bible is the word of God and that Jesus was nailed to a pole to pay for their sins. So they are attempting to convince other people that they must believe that the Bible is the word of God. They are the ones who are in a position where they need to prove their claims. Not only are they claiming that a God exists, but they are are also claiming that God wrote a very bigoted male-chauvinistic book that is full of violent solutions to problems. So they aren't merely claiming that God exists, but they are even claiming that God wrote a particular book. Plus they have plenty of competition. Their book is only one of three books that arose from the very same folklore that they are claiming came from God. So they need to also prove that their book is the only one that's true and the other two are false! Christians have three major problems! 1. They need to prove that a God exists at all. 2. They need to prove that this God actually had something to do with their Bible. 3. They need to prove that their interpretation of their bible is the only correct interpretation! So they have a lot of proving to do! I might add that when it comes to #3 Christians don't even agree with each other. Clearly the Catholics and the Protestants disagree. The Protestants protested against the Catholic Church a long time ago. So they've got that war to dispute as well. The Protestants themsleves have fallen into a myriad of denominations that protest against each other! That's what protestants do! They protest! So the idea that it comes down between Christians versus Atheists is absurd. Spider often gives abstract arugments of why there must be a God. Ironically most of his arguments actually support a pantheistic idea of God that would be far better suited to Eastern Mysticism than to the Biblical picture of God. I mean, even if we could prove that a divine spirit exists we'd be a very long way from showing any association with the bloody violent male-chaunvinistic God described in the Bible. So even a proof that some kind of divine spirit exists wouldn't support Christianity, or any of the other Mediterranean versions of a jealous egotistical God who is appeased by blood sacrifices. Even the very crucifixion of Jesus was supposedly a blood sacrifice so that God could find it in his heart to forgive mankind. What kind of a God needs blood sacrifices before he can forgive people? I can forgive people without being appeased by blood sacrifices. Why would God be weaker then me? Why would God need to be appeased before he can forgive? Christians have a very long way to go between proving that a God exists, and then proving that it has anything to do with the Biblical picture. If I found out with absolute certainty that a God exists the first thing that would come to my mind is that Eastern Mysticism might be right after all. That would be my first thought. So Christians have far more to do than just prove the existence of a God. They must also prove that God lusts for blood sacrifices. And then they'd still be arguing among themselves about all the differing interpretations they have of their own doctrine. Bishop Carlton Pearson was a Christian who was denounced by mainstream Christianity becasue Bishop Pearson believed to have an epiphany from God that there is no such place as hell. So even if the Biblical God exists it would really be hard to know which Christian actually understood the book correctly. Clearly the book us so ambigious that even Christians can't agree on what it says. Surely if any God did right that book he couldn't blame the atheists for having rejected it on the grounds that it is far too ambigous. That's a given. Even God himself would have to confess up to that one. If there's a God associated with having inspired the Mediterranean folklores then he's way overdue for pubishing a new improved version of his book. Clearly no divine intelligence could expect any sane person to believe in those ancient convoluted stories. |
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Edited by
smiless
on
Fri 01/09/09 08:19 AM
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A message for everyone to enjoy
Three words about set up minds: It won't work meaning.... Someone who has their mind setup to believe in a certain religious or spiritual path will most likely never change their mind. (I am not saying it isn't possible, but most likely they won't) No matter how much logic a individual will give a person who is devoted to Christianity, Muslim, or Jewish faith system the likelyhood is minimum that his or her mind will change into a different belief system. As if it is inbreeded inside of them since childhood. The same goes for those who don't believe also. Very few will have a mind to allow an open book of possibilities, this meaning, that they will actually look at all religions and idealogies and say in the end "Maybe" it is possible but highly unlikely or highly likely. One thing I realized since this is primarily an American visited site that those who are Christian, which is the majority will not change their mind about their faith system regardless how much logic or additional questions a non christian asks. Therefore, what seems logical for one person sounds absurd for another as what sounds absurd for another may sound logical for the other. It is a tug of war that has no ending. In the end what is important is you find inner peace in your studies and you can shed such peace to others in return. If you struggle then perhaps it is time to look for another alternative to find the inner peace and happiness every human being seeks in their short time of life on this planet. |
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Abracadabra said:
3. They need to prove that their interpretation of their bible is the only correct interpretation! No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means. -- George Bernard Shaw |
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the dawn of man a sunrise at dusk, the infinite circle that create all trust, evidence buried deep in the crust, flanks all swollen about to bust, the tail the head need not a toss, nothing missing not one ounce as lost, dead and dying be no more the cost, justice roam the world evil to accost, wormwood the holy that swarmed the land, marked the mind and tied the hands, pours holy minds thru the eye of the needle like sand, the lamb once bleeding no longer a man, open the books each page to unfold, trees all plucked fig leaves once sold, trunks of cedar and hickory and burl, all that was spoken now be unfurled, the measure of knowing as what be welcome, infinite possibilities cannot be broken, all in the universe as one unbroken, winter and summer the spring rains bring the token, the chariots ride and unbridle the bits that choke, perfect love created no longer be broke, one rider come forth and smash the yoke, imagination prick reality just as was spoke, nights and days and no more sky, signs in the scrolls cure all evil eye, the dragon it struggle but soon shall die, let fear and love be summoned on high, erase the divide and courage take flight, the day and hour pass in just one night, yang be ying and zen the purple cord, all one mind and all of accord, spirits once beaten now gold they afford, wisdom and truth the king and lord, earth as shaken the divine as rose, the womb as closed all mankind exposed, perplexion and confusion no longer the foe, the hair of wisdom white and long it grow, firery reason with no start and no end, einstien and lennon casey nostros begin, gravity wane and big wheels they do spin, equal be the flame that burn within, once what was wrote that made the mote, breached all logic crafted each boat, trees cut down and all branches afloat, once broken cisterns now where the coat, old magic carpets once damaged and torn, race thru the skies and erase the scorn, bias birthed equality and freedom is born, the crop be readied now harvest the corn, come ye hither all cursed good or bad, truth be equalized and erase all the sad, dries the tears and remove the gag, young and old the prize be had, the myths displaced that made malice and hate, time wound tight release the plan and set the fate, memories jagged stones laid plain and straight, uncover the path and lead to the gate, childlike toddlers released from a fall, wise all knowing now grown and tall, balance now free released from the stall, honest candor come one and all, hearts open forth and set free the sails, pious kingdoms do crumble and fail, holy perceptions no longer avial, truth as slavery no man buy or sell, flying eagle eyes rip down all the blinds, infinite unlock each creature sublime, new horizons redeem once feeble minds, mankinds destiny about to unwind, awareness as free if no holier than thee, shatters the hourglass set captives free, the veil now rent what do you see, equality quell the hearts that bleed, bias the serpent the once ravaged and beat, starved to death no mortals to eat, brotherhood the meat prepare the feast, power as perfect no strongarm defeat, the son arise and stop mercy for cash, hatred sold once that ripped the sash, dogma and doctrine burned in the trash, united mankind now nothing dare abash, machines stop churning the earth no more turning, what crawled on its belly now no more hurting, holy spirits removed eyes now yearning, the snake distain give way to learning, no lion no lamb no bear no beast, taste the ripened fruit of equality, pure wisdom blind eyes to entreat, proposed evil slaves now smile with glee, holy leaders in fright do flee, towns and countries and cities ensanred now free, prepare the magic and light up the show, trees of knowledge cut down and smote, trees of life now free to grow, eternal life let lose to flow, what was down now up and up as down, no more mary round and round, eves adorned in rainbow gowns, adom in flux light up the towns, wonderland stories once as foretold, greatness unvieled swallow the fold, universe four sides now do unfold, galaxie laid out all eyes behold, civilization the statue now as complete, hands with swords no longer compete, gather all adoms untie the energy, towers of commerce as silent and empty, perpetual spirit stop all the commotion, equal the prophet stir the big potion, rise the atlantis and erase all notions, spark the perpetual and set infinite in motion............. <- 795 Magnificently Gorgeous Words Fundamentalist Christians COULD Say in a New Dawn of Humanity. |
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There are three types of religious people IMO, some mix and match to their liking. 1) Those that actually keep it to themselves, and do good things (from their perspective), don't necessarily believe everything that comes there way but don't care becuase its a theme more then anything. Anything that opposes that theme is disregarded becuase its the bigger picture that matters, they usually don't sweat the small stuff and wont argue about details. 2) Those that use religion as a tool for power and control over others. Hamas anyone? I don't think I need to say a lot about this type, some of them will kill with little regard for life as long as there is no reciprocation due to power differentials, I think all of this type would kill if the system in place grants them the authority, or if they can manage to take it. All it takes to rationalize it is to use the harsher points in the scripture which justifies it FROM GOD and move on to the next move that heightens there power base. 3) Sheep who engage with a charismatic religious "leader" who evokes all kinds of pleasure center reactions in there brains and this person "illuminated" god for them, so what ever doctrine that is they will follow blindly. The sheep LOVE to argue over the details becuase its all about who is closer to god, anyone that doesn't believe there specific doctrine is wrong and going to hell, or at least wont reach heaven which is all made up garbage to elicit pleasure center response when the sheep thinks its in the right. Sheep will follow a #2 if that was there "leader" who originally evoked this initial pleasure center response and induced the religious enlightenment feeling in the brain.If they find a more Charismatic leader who isn't too different then they can change denominations easily. I would say thankfully that most in America are #1 and #3 or a mixture of those to differing degrees. Most other parts of the world are ruled by #2's especially in 3rd world countries. Three Cheers! Good Post!! |
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Seeing is always believing.... isn't it?
I can't see my mind, but I can touch my brain. I must be mindless. I don't know why I'm awake, but I can tell you that everyone has to be an agnostic. There is archaelogical and historical evidence for the bible, but I can tell you that ancient scribes or the religious right or some power hungry dictators manufactured it. I believe Homer wrote the Illiad, but I don't believe any of the named authors wrote the Old or New Testaments. I won't believe in the possibility of a deity, but I can accept man evolving from inorganic ooze that might have been injected onto this planet by invisible spacemen. I can't believe in miracles, but I can believe that the most mathematically impossible things are due to blind fate. I won't believe in God, but I love other people. |
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Seeing is always believing.... isn't it? I can't see my mind, but I can touch my brain. I must be mindless. I don't know why I'm awake, but I can tell you that everyone has to be an agnostic. There is archaelogical and historical evidence for the bible, but I can tell you that ancient scribes or the religious right or some power hungry dictators manufactured it. I believe Homer wrote the Illiad, but I don't believe any of the named authors wrote the Old or New Testaments. I won't believe in the possibility of a deity, but I can accept man evolving from inorganic ooze that might have been injected onto this planet by invisible spacemen. I can't believe in miracles, but I can believe that the most mathematically impossible things are due to blind fate. I won't believe in God, but I love other people. I believe in other people... Blind Faith |
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there is a God......and he created the universe Got proof to back up that claim? prove that he didn't !... |
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Thats the second time you have been forced to make the same post.
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Thats the second time you have been forced to make the same post. |
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For any christian - "I don't know" - is not a viable option to their certainty that God exists. The proof is in the life they live and the experiences thereof. The key word here is experience. Certainly one's world view comes into play here. I can look at a tree and know that the mere existance of it is part of the total ecological system of the functioning of the planet, and attribute that as part of an intelligent design - but to a chemical evolutionist - I cannot share this experience of certainty, for their world view is that the same tree they see is here by random chance, and has adapted itself into the eco-system through it's need to survive. Yet what we can both claim with absolute certainty is that "there's a tree". The "how" of the tree remains uncertain - unless one of us planted it - which then begs the question "how did the seed get here", and on and on it goes. There's just no means of establishing "evidence" to support the assurity with which one wishes to claim their belief that something is "the" truth - to convince another that they somehow are the only true witnessess of truth. I don't think this is a unique attribute of christians. I believe we all share this. When you ask a christian if there is a god they will not say I don't know they will say yes or of course even though they realy do not know, they can't know. They believe there is but they don't know there is. Explain how it is they can't know. oh ok so you have absolute proof there is a god? Great, show it us I would realy love to see it. And if thats the case then yes at that point they can say they know there is a god. So please show me your proof. What difference does it make if you see my proof? I need your approval to assert my proof is valid, is that what you are asserting? How is that going to explain to me that I can't know there is a God? I'm still waiting for your response to that question before I respond to yours. |
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there is a God......and he created the universe Got proof to back up that claim? prove that he didn't !... What is a negative assertion? |
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Explain how it is they can't know. Christians worship a book as the "word of God". But that book has been shown to be so self-contradictive and self-inconsistent that it couldn't possibly be the word of any God. So whether or not "a God" might exist abstractly is irrelavent. What we can know is that the biblical account of God can't be true because the biblical stories are self-conflicting. I think atheists clearly have the upper hand when it comes to proof. Especially in light of the new Inflation theories that show how the universe could indeed start from nothing without violating the known laws of physics. There's no longer a need to have a God create it all from nothing. Your post does nothing to explain how a person can't know there is a God. And if there is any group of thinkers lacking proof to their beliefs - it's Atheists. They can do nothing to support their conjector that there is no God. Impossible to prove. Even you know that. I can't prove that Thor does not exist so does that mean he does? And Athiests do not have anything to prove because they are not the ones makeing the claim. Your not explaining how it is I can't know there is a God. Would you just rather retract your statement? |
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Eljay, Atheists are not in a position to have to prove anything. They make no claims other than the fact that they dont see the point in worship of a godhead. That would include any sort of mystical concept of a creator and not just the god of the bible. Its not as if they single out Christians. They do very often take the position however that people are routinely killed in the name of these world religions and they are fed up with that. So that being the case - Atheists do not have the upper hand in proving anything, since they don't have to. Which is the object of the statement of my original post. So you are agreeing with me then. |
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Explain how it is they can't know. Christians worship a book as the "word of God". But that book has been shown to be so self-contradictive and self-inconsistent that it couldn't possibly be the word of any God. So whether or not "a God" might exist abstractly is irrelavent. What we can know is that the biblical account of God can't be true because the biblical stories are self-conflicting. I think atheists clearly have the upper hand when it comes to proof. Especially in light of the new Inflation theories that show how the universe could indeed start from nothing without violating the known laws of physics. There's no longer a need to have a God create it all from nothing. Your post does nothing to explain how a person can't know there is a God. And if there is any group of thinkers lacking proof to their beliefs - it's Atheists. They can do nothing to support their conjector that there is no God. Impossible to prove. Even you know that. I can't prove that Thor does not exist so does that mean he does? And Athiests do not have anything to prove because they are not the ones makeing the claim. Your not explaining how it is I can't know there is a God. Would you just rather retract your statement? again, You have no evidence what so ever so you can not know there is a god. Well and be honest anyway, but I doubt you will let that detail stand in your way of makeing claims.If you are religious then honesty and evidence are your enemy. |
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