I agree on this Abra. Back when I was reading the bible (Ive since quit that) I was actually labeling the parts that I was okay with. I had green post its and I was actually sticking them into the passages I liked. A few were.

Thou shalt not steal.

What is stolen or wrongfully acquired should be returned to the owner.

Leave some grapes on the vine for travelers and the poor.

Don't gossip.

Don't hate people.

So I made an effort. There is more than these few actually. But these are all common sense, decent moral imperatives in which to govern ones life.

I dont need the bible to tell me this crap!

I would do it anyway.

So these would be my personal salad bits that I like and then I would throw away the rest of the bible. I reject all the horror, anger, bitterness and resentment. Its depressing.

lemme guess, you are privy to the unprovable knowledge of god and his finiteness. So you *know* God is infinite, and he therefore does not have to have a cause because you say so.

That whole argument is based on the idea that time is an absolute.

But Albert Einstein showed us that time is not an absolute. It's just an illusion of the spacetime manifestation.

Therefore any attempt to use the concept of absolute time to prove the need for a 'first cause' is a moot argument because absolulte time itself has been debased.

This is a logical argument proving that a god exists. If you want to debate it, then go right ahead.

No, it's based on the need for finite things to have a cause. Since your completely false understanding of the Theory of Relativity has nothing to do with cause and effect, you are wrong. You would have been wrong anyways, because Einstein proved no such thing.

As an atheist, I wish more people would at least read that part about turning the other cheek. I'm tired of "vengeance-junkies." They make me sick.

dude, i'm a teenager. i'm not smart enough to debate you.

I don't presume to know all the answers but i do ask questions and i do know when something doesn't make sense in my humble lil brain To debate carries the connotations that i am set in my mind and that i argue a point just for arguing it's sake. Honestly, if you or any christian can logically meet its burden of proof i would convert to christianity on the spot. *admitting being wrong is the advancement of knowledge. Until then my stance is "i don't know".

Now tell me, how is it you are privy to the information that god is infinite and that he does not require a first cause. And why can't the universe be infinite, and itself not require a first cause

Well ok theres 2 things to prove to make me convert to christianity on the spot, the existence of god and that that god ghostwrote the bible and ordained christianity over alll the other religions.*

* - edit

Spider is that you in that photo?

I think the deal with turning the other cheek is so you can get punched from the other side.

There you go Mr. Spider. Prove that the universe is finite. Prove that God is infinite.

Moreover your claim that finite things must have a first cause is nothing more than your own assertion anyway.

Einstein showed that time is a manifestation of spacetime. It's part of the fabric of what we call the physical world.

You claim that I don't know what I'm talking about.

But that's all it is Mr. Spider. You're empty claim.

That's all you have is empty claims that don't mean diddly squat.

Keep in mind Mr. Spider. I'm not the one who is trying to PROVE something.

You are!

I'm merely pointing out why your lame claims of 'proof' are no proofs at all.

You're the one who has to prove your case, because you are the one who is out to prove something.

But since you can't even show how time can be absolute, then your claim that finite things must have a 'first cause' is moot.

You'd have to show how time must be absolute before you could gain any headway with your argument.

But you can't use the time in this universe because Einstein showed us that the time in this universe is a product of the very fabric of the physical manifestation itself.

So you're not getting anwhere. You're just kidding yourself that you can prove anything.

Everything that is finite must have a cause. The universe is obviously finite, there are no reputable scientist who argues that our current universe isn't finite.

According to the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems, no singularity can be extended infinitely into the past. So according to contemporary science, the universe cannot be an oscillating universe and therefore cannot be infinitely old. There is also the theory of the conservation of entropy. Which shows that even if all existing matter were swallowed up by a black hole and then expelled as a new universe (another big bang), entropy wouldn't decrease. If a oscillating universe were possible, then eventually, nothing would exist except entropy.

Therefore, the universe had a beginning.

Thus we know that something caused the universe to exist.

Something which wasn't an oscillating singularity / universe. According to science today, something had to have created the universe.

I believe it was God. I base this on logical proofs rather than physical proofs. The first is the one I have already quoted, the famous Cosmological argument made by Thomas Aquinas.

Are you actually arguing that there are things which exist, which will end to exist, that weren't caused by anything?



What you are mangling is that Einstein believed the universe to be a four dimensional structure. How does "time is a manifestation of spacetime" make any sense? You are just repeating yourself. Einstein believed that time and space are dimensions of the universe. Einstein did believe that time was an illusion, but not in the way that you were describing. Because Einstein believed the universe to be a four dimensional structure, time is just a direction in which we move at a certain pace. That means that the universe as a single four dimensional object has no time and existed instantaneously with all events happening at one time. Which is why Einstein called time an illusion, but he didn't mean that time doesn't exist at all, but rather that we experience time only because we are trapped within the universe.

i abhor the idea of me putting forward a counterargument without knowing first what it is you are arguing in the same vein of "have you ever seen a catdog? then evolution can't be true!!" so i will do further research on what you've said and get back to you. I study psychology, not astro-physics

I cant believe this thread changed tone so dramatically in like three posts. I took a friggin phone call and Im lost.

Unfortunately, your posts don't exhibit that stance. You are obviously hostile to a belief in God. You are willing to admit that you don't know everything and that's admirable. But I think you should slow down a bit on your attempts to offend theists. I know it's fun to make fun of people, but if you have a truly honest desire to know the truth, then you shouldn't be attempting to offend those who can help you reach that goal.

Spider, your truth is quite simply your personal definition of truth and it is presumptuous for you to attempt to impose your truth on her or anyone else. I think that is clearly the intended point of this thread. The ridiculous arguments we have all witnessed taking place in the GR forum from the Christians specifically.

Thats right

i'm not hostile to a belief in god. I have always carried the stance of "i don't know. In my profile i label myself as agnostic.

My hostility is toward religion. there is a difference. i believe religions are alll made up crap by primitive humans who 1) wished to fill in blank spaces of knowledge with random nonsense rather than say "i don't know" and 2) wished to control masses of people and make money by claiming a divine authority over said masses.

It self-perpetuates, by covering its nonsensical ass by preaching that despite how retarded this sounds you must "have faith" and ignore all evidence that proves how retarded this actually is. The people who concieved it were smart enough to plan for unbelievers because they knew how unbelievable the claims are. why? because its not true!! And if that wasnt enough those kind folks threatened those who didnt believe with hell and bribed with a poorly thought out heaven.

Religion is a bane in the side of humanity, countless people have been killed because of it, countless minds have been and still are atrophied because of it, if there is a god, the unimaginably murderous and nonsensical doctrine they preach and which has resulted in so many massacres and miscarriages of justice must be an embarrassment to him/her/it. Seriously sir, how have you rationalized the old testament in your mind? Does that seem like the words of a loving and wise god to you?

There's no question in my mind that christianity is mostly made up, with a few historical facts and common sense thrown in there. That is why i made the edit that if you can prove that there is a god AND that that god ghostwrote the bible and ordained chritianity (which i highly doubt) then i'd covert

I didn't start this thread, so how could the "intended point" of this thread be to "impose my truth" on anyone?

Besides, for thousands of years, the worlds greatest philosophers believed in absolute truth. Nothing in our universe even puts that conclusion into question. The belief in relative truth really has no legs to stand on philosophically. While it's true that everything might have a different opinion on what is truth, that doesn't mean that everyone is wrong or right. It is clear that if there is an absolute truth that someone might be right. If you want to argue that my beliefs couldn't possibly be the absolute truth, then I would probably agree. But how about you put your beliefs out so that everyone can pick them apart? Or are you to afraid to take what you give?

Retarded doesn't mean stupid. It's not appropriate to use that word in place of "stupid".

I sincerely doubt that you know enough of the Bible to believe so strongly against Christianity.

You have basically made your "I don't see a dog/cat crossbreed, so Evolution doesn't exist!" argument.

You would do well to look at both sides...read Christian apologetics and Atheist attacks on Christianity instead of just accepting one side as whole cloth.