That is NOT a fair assessment of what has happened.



That is a flat out lie. I have stated that Christianity must be believed through faith many times. What Abra stated is simply not true. If it's not true and Abra must know it's not true (unless he responds to my posts without reading them, which I have always suspected), then it's a lie.

I know ya all will probably have something not nice to think about this but anyway. while reading this thread a certain song popped into my head so I just thought I let it convey my thoughts
.
.
.
Roll up, roll up for the magical mystery tour, step right this way.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up (AND) THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is waiting to take you away,
Waiting to take you away.

Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up GOT EVERYTHING YOU NEED, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up SATISFACTION GUARANTEED, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is hoping to take you away,
Hoping to take you away.

A mystery trip.

The magical mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up (AND) THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away,
Coming to take you away.
The magical mystery tour is dying to take you away,
Dying to take you away, take you today.

Spider for one thing, none of us have met so we have no idea if what you tell us is the truth, that you work with computers and we dont know if anything is the truth. You could be a bum for all we know who uses a computer in a library. So there is no reason to be rude to people.

You sound intelligent to me.

Abra sounds intelligent.

Show some respect.

I'm not going to argue, I see what I see, you see what you see.
All I'm asking you is to think about it, and how a publicly stated insult will affect yourself.

Spider, why do you always turn things in a personal war?

This isn't about 'Spider vs Abra'.

You're claiming to have scientific proof that God must exist.

Clearly the scientific community does not agree with your conclusions.

It's as simple as that.

There is no scientific evidence for God. If there was, science would be right on top of it.

So why try to discredit me when you know perfectly well that your claims are unfounded and unsupported by the scientific community?

Discrediting me isn't going to change that fact.

People aren't stupid. They can see that the scientific community doesn't back you up your claims.

I am honored though that you think that by somehow discrediting me you would have discredited science.

That's actually quite a compliment.

Thank you for that one.

HEY, don't make me get my iron rod out!

I have never made that claim. I am claiming a LOGICAL proof of a god's existence.

forgive my density spidey but i'm not seeing the logical proof of a god's existence

IF your argument that the universe is finite holds up (by the way from my small bit of internet research so far there is no consensus, and it is somewhat still basically guesswork) but for the purposes of argument lets presume that the universe is finite...

why is there the logical presumption that god/an intelligent designer was the cause of the universe?

and why is it logical to presume that god would be infinite, an therefore does not require to have a first cause himself?

It's a very short leap from showing that the universe needs a cause to understanding that the cause is intelligent, but the cosmological argument doesn't prove that.



The first cause must be infinite, otherwise it couldn't be the first cause.

Leibniz's Monadology called this cause a "Necessary Being". Leibniz theorized that there must be one being who is necessary for the existence of every possible universe. Leibniz believed in an infinite number of possible universes. He believed that whatever could cause those universes must be unchanging and infinite and thus he termed it a necessary being. For instance: If you had never been born, the universe would have carried on without you. Almost none of the aspects of this universe would be changed if you didn't exist. But there must be a single cause of this universe which is necessary to it's existence and current form in every way.

EDIT:

Be careful when you try to find out if the universe is "Finite" that you are reading about the age and not size of the universe. Both attributes could be either infinite or finite. Many will argue on the size of the universe, but the Big Bang theory itself requires that the universe had a beginning, so the universe is unquestionable finite in terms of age.

Thanks for sharing that, enjoyed it

you, still not proving that the cause of the universe was an intelligent designer, fail to prove logically that god exists, dont you? you say its a very small leap but a leap nonetheless.

"the first cause must be infinite"

and arent you making a illogical leap in presuming the cause of the universe is THE first cause?
could there not have been a cause for the cause of the universe?

First of all, I believe that there is a God. You don't have to if you don't want to....There is no scientific proof of God that we have been able to put together yet as a human race. Or if there is, It has been successfully covered up. A belief in God at this point is a thing of faith. The reason I believe in God is through a preponderance of the evidence available. The logic lesson that is taught in the scriptures and early writings and records of the human race are amazingly accurate as to what will be happening in the world. Don't even ask me to explain all of it. I won't do it over the net. But for people to have written what they did in so many different disciplines or faiths all those thousands of years ago, and to have them state things that are happening today with the amount of accuracy they did, I believe that there are forces at work in this universe that man cannot perceive. It is not only a just a matter of choice for me, it is also a matter of a logical conclusion based on my own experience's. I believe it is be counter productive to argue mute points. Anyone can believe the way they want to, they are free to do so. I will continue to believe the way I do, until ,and if, I decide to change my mind. Getting on some ones case on either side of the argument about this is not, in my opinion, a good thing. you all have a good night!

1) Impersonal forces act immediately.
2) Impersonal forces always have a cause.
3) The first cause couldn't have been an impersonal force.

If the cause of the universe was an impersonal force, then the force would have created the universe when it began. Since we know the universe isn't infinitely old, that means that an impersonal force would have to have had a cause. Therefore, the first cause must be a personal (as in a person or thinking being) force.



Occam's Razor.

It is possible to argue that the cause of the universe was caused, but that would be multiplying entities without reason.

There must be a single cause of the universe and it must be infinite. That's all we can come to through the Cosmological Argument. And besides, that misses the point.

For sake of argument, let's assume that the universe was caused by a Big Bang, which was in turn caused by a god. Then the first cause is still a god, you have just pushed it out by one more entity. That doesn't refute the Cosmological argument.

thats making no sense to me
perhaps thats just me. i am trying not to be closed minded. i am trying to understand because it is not everyday i come across a religious person who attempts to provide argument beyond the "you are going to hell" or "the bible says such and such".
but spidey... you are making guesses and passing them off as logic.
perhaps i am sleepy and not thinking straight, but honestly
the way i am reading it is you are sounding alot like the the first and second arguments in the original post.

this whole idea of "multiplying entities without reason"
you are saying that because the universe is not infinite it must have a cause. you cannot make the assumption out of the blue that the cause of the universe does not require a cause. you are assuming without reason that the cause of the universe is infinite... and why are you assuming that? you know nothing about the cause of the universe.no one does.

same goes for your assumption that a personal force created intelligently the impersonal force. pure guesswork.

oh my god

let me see now...

ok ok

anyhoo, its late and i'm a wee bit dowsy, if you reply i'll see it tomoro. good night.

alrighty then...



didn't someone say that "god is dead..."

but...

that's not really fair, is it...?