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| Topic: 60 Absolutely Infallible Indesputable Proofs That God Exist | |
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No. Thomas Aquinas's Cosmological argument proves that a god must exist, there are other arguments that push this further to the point of proving that God exists. Spider this is the comment I was referring to and why I was confused by what you meant. Can you blame me? You say proves that a god must exist and then when I asked you about it, you back tracked. You are stating right here that Aquinas's Cosmological model proves that a god must exist. Since you are Christian, I automatically assumed you were saying that his model proves that the god of the bible exists. That would appear as if you were really taking some liberties there and that is why I asked you about it alright. You probably would have fared better not to make this comment because you were taking it further than was realistically possible based on this one scientific premise and I asked you about it. So because YOU assumed something, then I'm wrong? That somehow disproves the Cosmological argument? If I had been talking about God, I wouldn't have said "a god". How must more clear could that be? I haven't back tracked, that's not true at all. If you think I have, then you need to ask for clarification. |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Thu 12/04/08 11:03 PM
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There is no shame in not understanding something. There are many things that I don't know or understand. You and Krimsa don't understand the Cosmological argument, therefore you wouldn't understand any arguments that depend upon the Cosmological argument. I never said or implied anyone was "beneath me". You are a pathological liar and I will point it out every time you lie, okay? Well you just lied right now. You said that Krimsa and I don't understand the Cosomological argument. But you have no right to make such a statement. You have absolutely no idea what I might know or not know. You just state that someone doesn't know something and act like it's a fact just because you made the claim. Anyway, you're being silly because all you are truly doing is trying to get eveyone else to believe how you'd like to believe. Why shouldn't we believe that you are the one who has misunderstood these concepts? In fact, clearly you must have. If science was in agreement with what you claim then science would also be claiming to have proof that there must be a God. But science isn't making that Claim. So clearly YOU must be the one who has misunderstood things. I'm going to bed. I might look at the links you've posted and show you why you're wrong. Clearly you are, because if you were right then science would agree with you. Clearly they don't. So clearly you have misunderstood something. Have a nice night. |
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That's not exactly correct. Black holes do explode when they reach a certain critical size. No it can't. See that, you offered a gratuitous assertion and I gratuitously refuted it. Also, the energy that escapes from a black hole can indeed be used. In fact, it was Penrose himself who showed how to use a black hole as a power generator. No, the Black Hole can be used as a power source, but the energy expelled from the black hole cannot be. The magnetic field of the black hole could be used to generate energy, but the energy expelled by the black hole is without use. And since a black hole will eventually evaporate, it isn't a permanent source of energy and eventually all of the energy would be rendered unusable. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 12/04/08 11:04 PM
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Then why are you claiming that it does support the existence of a god? What are these "other" arguments then? Logically supports? Was does that mean exactly? If its not an ID then how do you know its the biblical god that it is supporting as opposed to any other concept of god? It simply supports it enough for you to be happy because it doesnt conclusively disprove the idea of a creator? Pfft Even if it is an ID it still doesn't point to the Biblical myth. There's nothing the prevents ID in religions like Eastern Mysticism or any other pantheistic or animistic picture of God. On the contrary, it's much more likely that we are the spiritual essence of this universe. That makes far more sense than to believe that we are something 'other' than the spiritual essence of this universe. Spider's arguments do not point to the Biblical myth anyway. It's not my argument, it's Thomas Aquinas's oh great Biblical scholar.  Sorry, I'm not entirely sure you deserve that sarcasm, but it is mind boggling that someone could claim to have studied Christianity 30 or 40 years (the number is always changing, every time you make the claim) and have never heard of Thomas Aquinas's Cosmological Argument. And no, the Cosmological Argument doesn't point to the Biblical God, but it does point to a God. When you guys comprehend the Cosmological Argument, I can get into the others that support Christianity specifically. Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. |
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But you have no right to make such a statement. You have absolutely no idea what I might know or not know. You just state that someone doesn't know something and act like it's a fact just because you made the claim. You are right, but I was basing that statement on everything you have ever said and the fact that you thought it was my argument when it's actually almost 2000 years old. |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. i do believe that constitutes a personal attack spidey... what have you been saying about me being offensive to your religion again...? 
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That's not exactly correct. Black holes do explode when they reach a certain critical size. No it can't. See that, you offered a gratuitous assertion and I gratuitously refuted it. It's no gratuitous, it's in the textbooks. But I'm not going to teach you physics. Keep in mind. You're the one who's out to prove something. Not me. Also, the energy that escapes from a black hole can indeed be used. In fact, it was Penrose himself who showed how to use a black hole as a power generator. No, the Black Hole can be used as a power source, but the energy expelled from the black hole cannot be. The magnetic field of the black hole could be used to generate energy, but the energy expelled by the black hole is without use. And since a black hole will eventually evaporate, it isn't a permanent source of energy and eventually all of the energy would be rendered unusable. Ok, you got me on that on. You've been studying hard I see.  However, it doesn't matter because the explantion lies in the expanding universe and the physics of entropy. You have nothing here that hasn't already been figured out. There's no 'proof of God' in all this stuff. Like I say, if there were then science would claim to have proof of God. Clearly they don't. So clearly you're wrong. |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Thu 12/04/08 11:09 PM
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. "This sort of miraculous event is possible in a holographic model of reality."-----Jeanniebean |
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Then why are you claiming that it does support the existence of a god? What are these "other" arguments then? Logically supports? Was does that mean exactly? If its not an ID then how do you know its the biblical god that it is supporting as opposed to any other concept of god? It simply supports it enough for you to be happy because it doesnt conclusively disprove the idea of a creator? Pfft Even if it is an ID it still doesn't point to the Biblical myth. There's nothing the prevents ID in religions like Eastern Mysticism or any other pantheistic or animistic picture of God. On the contrary, it's much more likely that we are the spiritual essence of this universe. That makes far more sense than to believe that we are something 'other' than the spiritual essence of this universe. Spider's arguments do not point to the Biblical myth anyway. It's not my argument, it's Thomas Aquinas's oh great Biblical scholar. Sorry, I'm not entirely sure you deserve that sarcasm, but it is mind boggling that someone could claim to have studied Christianity 30 or 40 years (the number is always changing, every time you make the claim) and have never heard of Thomas Aquinas's Cosmological Argument. And no, the Cosmological Argument doesn't point to the Biblical God, but it does point to a God. When you guys comprehend the Cosmological Argument, I can get into the others that support Christianity specifically. Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. Don't you start lying too. I haven't backtracked. SHOW me where I have "backtracked" and I will do my best to correct your misunderstanding of my posts. If you are going to claim that because I said "a god" and you ASSUMED I meant "The God" and then later I said it doesn't support the Biblical God specifically, that I was backtracking...then don't bother posting. |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. i do believe that constitutes a personal attack spidey... what have you been saying about me being offensive to your religion again...? I'm sorry...is it wrong to call someone who tells lies about you a liar? When did I miss that memo? |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. Spider, in all fairness, what you said here is downright rude. I know you try hard, but at the end of the day with these statements you will just be another one of these "Christian Fundies". I thought for a while you had gone past this stage, but obviously you haven't. Do you really want to stoop to that level again? |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Thu 12/04/08 11:17 PM
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. Ok Spider, you've crossed the line on that one. So much for your exhibition of "Christian values and behavior". Your ego's showing. I'm outta of here. Clearly you have nothing based on science. If there was a scientific proof of God science would claim it. Clearly you're just out to insult people and belittle them. Good night, and good riddens. |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. i do believe that constitutes a personal attack spidey... what have you been saying about me being offensive to your religion again...? I'm sorry...is it wrong to call someone who tells lies about you a liar? When did I miss that memo? here is the memo you so obviously missed "Religion Forum Rules" "We know that religion is a topic that many people feel extremely passionate about, both believers and non-believers. However, if you wish to participate in this forum, discussions must remain civil at ALL times. If you wish to have a reasoned discussion about religion, the existence or non-existence of God, etc., you may do so, but users who resort to insults or attacks in either direction as part of these discussions will be banned without notice." |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 12/04/08 11:20 PM
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Thats not the point spider. You just dont have to be rude to people is all I meant.
There's no 'proof of God' in all this stuff. I have to agree with that assessment spider. You have proven nothing. You have not shown that something had to "create a cause" That implies an intelligent designer. Im not saying that it is an impossible theory but you also refuse to accept the concept of evolutionary biology which makes me question some of your basic understandings overall. There is nothing that says that an intelligent designer did not utilize evolution in order to bring biological organisms into existence and begin that process over millions of years. Why take one and not the other? |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. Spider, in all fairness, what you said here is downright rude. I know you try hard, but at the end of the day with these statements you will just be another one of these "Christian Fundies". I thought for a while you had gone past this stage, but obviously you haven't. Do you really want to stoop to that level again? Invisible, I suppose you are right. I do get tired of the Abra show and wish he could be honest for a change. I'm a computer programmer who believes in Christianity and has a passing interest in science. Nothing spectacular, but it's honest. Abra uses his claim to have been a physics professor to BS people. I have seen it dozens of times. He will summarize the Anthropic Principle whenever I bring it up, but his summary is as far from the truth as you can get. He claimed that physicists question the equations behind the Anthropic Principle, but when requested he never supplied a single physicist who questions those equations. Abra's schtick is that he claims to be a physicist and because of this "Appeal to Authority" fallacy, people fall in line behind him. "I am a physics professor, so I can tell you XXXX". Even when I post physicists over and over refuting whatever he has stated, he is still believed because hes a "physicist". So while I shouldn't have been so sarcastic and rude, my point remains. His claims are an "Appeal to Authority" which allows him to lead those who believe his claims and/or those who are too apathetic to do the research on their own. |
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Spider just drop it alright.
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Thats not the point spider. You just dont have to be rude to people is all I meant. There's no 'proof of God' in all this stuff. I have to agree with that assessment spider. You have proven nothing. You have not shown that something had to "create a cause" That implies an intelligent designer. Im not saying that it is an impossible concept but you also refuse to accept the concept of evolutionary biology which makes me question some of your basic understandings overall. There is nothing that says that an intelligent designer did not utilize evolution in order to bring biological organisms into existence and begin that process over millions of years. Why take one and not the other? If a house burned down, does that mean that the fire was intelligent? The house fire was caused by something, does it necessitate an intelligent cause? No. No. No. The cosmological argument proves that the universe had a cause. That's it. It doesn't prove or imply an intelligent creator. It proves that something caused the universe to exist. There are other arguments that will take us past this point into the realms of "Is the cause intelligent" and "which religion, if any, most accurately describes this cause"? |
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here is the memo you so obviously missed "Religion Forum Rules" "We know that religion is a topic that many people feel extremely passionate about, both believers and non-believers. However, if you wish to participate in this forum, discussions must remain civil at ALL times. If you wish to have a reasoned discussion about religion, the existence or non-existence of God, etc., you may do so, but users who resort to insults or attacks in either direction as part of these discussions will be banned without notice." I agree, I went over the line with that one. That's what I get for posting when tired and hungry. Maybe I'll be banned, maybe I won't. I don't think that calling Abra a liar is crossing the line and will disagree with anyone who says otherwise. He posts obvious lies about me and I have a right to point that out. If I don't have that right on this forum, then I don't belong here anyways. |
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Spider quit being so rude. I dont care when you insult my intelligence but for Christ sake, Abra is a friggin physicist. Just take it down a notch. Show some respect. All I was asking about was that ridiculous statement you made. Dont write checks your ass cant cover and then backtrack. Its annoying. You believe that? If you believe that, then you should believe anything. Anything. "I'm a unicorn". You should believe that. You MUST, if you believe that Abra is anything other than a pathological liar and a blow hard. Spider, in all fairness, what you said here is downright rude. I know you try hard, but at the end of the day with these statements you will just be another one of these "Christian Fundies". I thought for a while you had gone past this stage, but obviously you haven't. Do you really want to stoop to that level again? Invisible, I suppose you are right. I do get tired of the Abra show and wish he could be honest for a change. I'm a computer programmer who believes in Christianity and has a passing interest in science. Nothing spectacular, but it's honest. Abra uses his claim to have been a physics professor to BS people. I have seen it dozens of times. He will summarize the Anthropic Principle whenever I bring it up, but his summary is as far from the truth as you can get. He claimed that physicists question the equations behind the Anthropic Principle, but when requested he never supplied a single physicist who questions those equations. Abra's schtick is that he claims to be a physicist and because of this "Appeal to Authority" fallacy, people fall in line behind him. "I am a physics professor, so I can tell you XXXX". Even when I post physicists over and over refuting whatever he has stated, he is still believed because hes a "physicist". So while I shouldn't have been so sarcastic and rude, my point remains. His claims are an "Appeal to Authority" which allows him to lead those who believe his claims and/or those who are too apathetic to do the research on their own. That you have different understanding of things does not make anyone a liar. It's just that, different understanding. I have a different understanding of Christianity than you have, obviously, does that make me a liar, too? No, it doesn't. And it is so with all things, so just let it pass. |
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