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| Topic: Noah's Ark : An Engineering Imposibility | |
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"As we all know, part of the right-wing revolution in this country was the consolidation of the religious vote. That, in turn, depended on convincing churchgoers that they should vote their faith in the first place. The very notion of knowing who God backs in the race is laughable, but it became no laughing matter when the schism between red and blue states elevated splinter groups, including hard-line evangelicals, into the driver's seat. As swing voters, the religious right discovered new and ever more unlikely rationales for seizing power. The basic argument of "God is on our side" was dubious enough, but it was stretched to extreme lengths: God is against Roe v. Wade, God demands that our children pray in school, God condemns homosexuals to hell. It would have been more truthful simply to label themselves as the intolerance faction."
Deepak Chopra |
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"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
Benjamin Franklin 
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Benjaman franklin also flew a kite in a lighting storm! yikes! I guess there is a fine line between insanity and genious.
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Benjaman franklin also flew a kite in a lighting storm! yikes! I guess there is a fine line between insanity and genious. Yeah. He was a mad scientist alright. And those britches and glasses? He was a sex machine. Mmmm.
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Benjaman franklin also flew a kite in a lighting storm! yikes! I guess there is a fine line between insanity and genious. Yeah. He was a mad scientist alright. And those britches and glasses? He was a sex machine. Mmmm. He was trying a cure for erectile disfunction when he went out with the kite in the storm. |
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And as per my quote, I asked you to clearly show me where it is the Christian god or the god of the bible that is being discussed in any of your random and I may add taken out of context quotations. Notice on all of these I use nearly the entire paragraph. Not one sentence. Obviously you know that I am well versed in historical matters as it was I that you addressed to explain to you the basics of Paleontology. How quickly we forget. Any reputable historian who is not a Christian or simply trying to further that agenda understands that these Founding Fathers (at least 6 of the higher profile ones) were Deists and practiced "Ceremonial Deism". Clearly you understand the difference? Here we go. "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." Thomas Jefferson-to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814 "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." Benjamin Franklin in a letter to his father, 1738 "It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded against. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against. trespasses on its legal rights by others." James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" John Adams--letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816 "The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.'' Thomas Paine "Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." George Washington- - letter to Edward Newenham, 1792 This is an article from a treaty but I decided to throw it in for good measure.  Article 11 The Treaty with Tripoli "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Krimsa; You said - and I quote: Show me proof that it is related to Christianity or the god of the bible. So - I did. And I was not even quoting any of the confirmed Christains amoungst the founding fathers - the John Jays, Witherspoons, Samuel Adams - the list goes on. To say that the bible was not an influencial document on the founding of this nation is to re-write history. If that is what they taught you in class, you need to sue the schools you went to for fraud. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 11/24/08 10:34 PM
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Eljay, is that your rebuttal?? Here is the definition for Ceremonial Deism as it does not appear you are capable of distinguishing between the beliefs held by these men who were Deists and Evangelical Christianity.
"Ceremonial deism is a legal term used in the United States for nominally religious statements and practices deemed to be merely ritual and non-religious through long customary usage. Proposed examples of ceremonial deism include the reference to God introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, and the phrase "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency." |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 11/25/08 12:26 AM
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Another thing Eljay. The only people I have EVER heard espousing the fallacy that this nation was "built on Christian values" was out of the mouths of agenda driven right wing Christians. Not one bit of United States History that I was taught in the public school system ever led me to reach that conclusion.
In fact, that was what prompted me to research this topic a little more thoroughly because I kept thinking to myself why on earth would such erroneous misinterpretations of historical reality be preached unless people just want to make things up and take credit for something that they clearly have no right to. |
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Eljay you are right on target.Anyone who doesn't think this country was built from the ground up on Christian morals in extremely gullible and full of denile.Probably one of the easiest examples I can give is there is a church in nearly every town no matter how small in the United states.Even in the very,very,very early days you had a few houses,a few farms,maybe a few stores and a church.To say the people of America and our government did not care about Christianity and it's beliefs is total nonsense.
In government institutions all over America you won't have to look too far to see some mention of God.Even in Americas most primitive form of Goverment you will find that they always started a session with a prayer(and they were not praying to Allah,Budda,or some wiccan fat slob).This is still practiced today in our current government.Speeches often included some mention of God especially in war time. If you are still in denile why don't you visit a very old graveyard and see how many graves are marked with a cross. |
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"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity."
This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." Thomas Paine Yes I guess I would still need to tell you I dont believe in your FAT Jesus.
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Eljay you are right on target.Anyone who doesn't think this country was built from the ground up on Christian morals in extremely gullible and full of denile.Probably one of the easiest examples I can give is there is a church in nearly every town no matter how small in the United states.Even in the very,very,very early days you had a few houses,a few farms,maybe a few stores and a church.To say the people of America and our government did not care about Christianity and it's beliefs is total nonsense. In government institutions all over America you won't have to look too far to see some mention of God.Even in Americas most primitive form of Goverment you will find that they always started a session with a prayer(and they were not praying to Allah,Budda,or some wiccan fat slob).This is still practiced today in our current government.Speeches often included some mention of God especially in war time. If you are still in denile why don't you visit a very old graveyard and see how many graves are marked with a cross. Agreed. I may FURTHER add....(and this is probably what Krimsa is basically saying )..... we are a CHRISTIAN NATION..... One Nation Under God.... However.... we ALSO ALLOW FREEDOM OF RELIGION in this Country. We allow others to worship as they choose, but still the majority in this nation are Christians. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 11/25/08 04:46 AM
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Well thats "sort" of true MS but you are placing a bit of the typical evangelical spin on things.as usual. I will take your points one at a time. I may FURTHER add....(and this is probably what Krimsa is basically saying )..... No thats NOT all I am basically saying. Please scroll up to see what I have stated with plenty of supportive evidence to back it. In fact, all you need do is take a look at our modern day constitution today. Why do you think these Deist Founding Fathers felt such a firm desire to create this "Wall of Separation" between church and state? Because they were not Christians but that is merely a small part of it. We were breaking away from the control of England and they were in the process of designing a new nation and society virtually from scratch. This would mean a stand would need to be made against the concept of "Divine Authoritarian Rule." This is not opinion and conjecture, this is HISTORICAL REALITY. we are a CHRISTIAN NATION Its true that Christianity (including Catholicism which is number 1) is probably the largest religion in the US today. What difference does that make? Were you also aware that Wicca, an Earth/Goddess focal spirituality is now the 5th largest in the US? It trails only Hinduism. It is also the fasting growing organized religion in the US today. Your point? One Nation Under God See my definition for "Ceremonial Deism." |
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Krimsa...do you know what true christianity is?
True christianity is loving God.... and loving others... but also allowing others freedom of choice.... to beleive as they will... while still praying for and loving all people.....even if they don't believe as we do. Same with a Christian nation. We ALlow people in this nation, the FREEDOM of choice of religious beliefs... yet we still are a Christian nation. (otherwise we would be nothing more than a RELIGIOUS nation with nothing more than religious control over people). Again, we are a CHRISTIAN NATION!!! Meaning.... We are NOT a communist nation, or a hindu nation, or a buddist nation....but a CHRISTIAN NATION........THAT ALSO ALLOWS OTHERS THE FREEDOM TO WORSHIP AS THEY SO CHOOOSE!!! (Which again, is what true christianity is about....which is what this nation is based on.... meaning..... it ALSO allows one the freedom to choose !!! In other words, our christian nation doesn't FORCE peope to become christian.... otherwise , this nation would be nothing more than a RELIGIOUS DICTATORSHIP OF RELIGIOUS CONTROL.....AND NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!! But no..we are not that........ again.... we are a Chrsitian nation, that ALSO ALLOWS people to worship as they choose.  |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 11/25/08 05:28 AM
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But that is NOT what this discussion is about MS. Thats is conjecture and your personal belief. It may not be mine but that is neither here nor there.
I am telling you and have provided an abundance of supportive evidence to show that this nation was in fact NOT founded in any way, shape or form on any "Christian values" whatever that means. You can spout your personal beliefs until the cows come home but that is not topic related. Article 11 The Treaty with Tripoli "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 11/25/08 07:33 AM
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Krimsa..I read in some earlier posts, where you mention that some of the founding fathers were not christians.
Well... What some of the the founding fathers individually beleived or didn't believe, is not the point... ...they all still came together in agreement, that this country would be a Godly nation.... One nation under God... indivisible ... with Liberty and Justice for All. But I am sure that what some of our founding fathers were really opposed to , was not christianity, but were opposed to some of the "churches" back then... simply because there were some fanatic religiousity churches back then also , just as there are today.... where religion ruled, and NOT God.... and the Love of God was no where to be found. If witches were burned at the stake, you can bet there were some real fanatic religious folks (diguised in the name of christianity) around back then ... and these religious folk most likely, also tried to even tell our founding fathers how this country should be run also. Thank God for a Nation under God and not a nation under religious rule.... btw..Krimsa..do a study on what hardships our founding fathers faced....after coming together and being determined ,to make this nation a nation under God... Indivisible... with Liberty and Justice for all. Freedom isn't Free...it costs some a lot. |
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In a NUTSHELL.....
we are a Christian Nation....that allows religious freedom for all.... we are NOT a diestic nation.... once more.... we are a christian nation.... one nation under God...not deism... a christian nation that allows liberty and justice for all!! (including freedom of religion!!!!) |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 11/25/08 07:55 AM
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Krimsa..I read in some earlier posts, where you mention that some of the founding fathers were not christians. I dont think you read everything I posted very clearly. That doesnt surprise me as the Christians tend to gloss over anything that does not agree with the fairly tales they have been taught. You also run to the support of one another, right or wrong.You will notice that I clearly showed where one of the quotes by Patrick Henry that Eljay had posted was fraudulent.  Six of the higher profile Founding Fathers (that we know of) were clearly Deists or Unitarians and NOT Christians. There might have been more and probably were. I never said that they were ALL Deists. Enough to ensure we have the Constitution in effect today without any manipulation or Christian agenda bias. One nation under God... indivisible ... with Liberty and Justice for All You clearly did not read the definition for "Ceremonial Deism" The rest of what you wrote is more blah blah, personal belief so its unresponsive. You have yet to address the Treaty with Tripoli Article 11 also. Unfortunately for you, thats quite the smoking gun. I just dont know how an "anti-Christian" stance in the political arena could be any more plainly exhibited by these men. |
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Nope.
They were NOT anti-CHRISTIAN.... they were anti-RELIGION. They did not want religion...or ANY religion to rule.... therefore that is why religious freedom was allowed..for aLL!!!!! But we are STILL A CHRISTIAN NATION!! You see Krimsa...True christianity isn't about ruling with a religion(that's what religion does) ..but true christianity allows freedom of choice....and that is what this nation under God(NOT deism) truly is about!!! |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Tue 11/25/08 08:32 AM
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And the Treaty with Tripoli? Any day now MS. Krimsa looks at her watch. Deists are not "anti-religion" MS. This is a definition from a Deist web site.
Deism is belief in God based on the application of our reason on the designs/laws found throughout Nature. The designs presuppose a Designer. Deism is therefore a natural religion and is not a "revealed" religion. The natural religion/philosophy of Deism frees those who embrace it from the inconsistencies of superstition and the negativity of fear that are so strongly represented in all of the "revealed" religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. (These religions are called revealed religions because they all make claim to having received a special revelation from God which they pretend, and many of their sincere followers actually believe, their various and conflicting holy books are based on.) When enough people become Deists, reason will be elevated over fear and myth and its positive qualities will become a part of society as a whole. Then, instead of having billions of people chasing after the nonsensical violence promoting myths of the "revealed" religions, people will be centered on their God-given reason which will lead to limitless personal and societal progress! |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Tue 11/25/08 09:52 AM
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(
For Krimsa) ...Is America a Christian Nation?... It's a question that strikes fear in the secular progressive. It sends shivers down the spine of a skeptic. It rattles the cage of cultural combatants. And it prompts flat-out anger in the hearts of religious antagonists: Is America a Christian nation? Did our country's Founders build a nation upon the bedrock of Christian beliefs and practices? Or was their republic irreligious or a secular state, embedded within a dominantly deistic worldview? For those who find our country's Christian origins both implausible and untenable, the greatest alleged witness and support they cite is Amendment XI in the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, in which we find the words, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." But do those words prove what they so plainly are quoted to proclaim? One of the errors of the Barbary States was that they considered America a Christian nation in the lineage of its European predecessors. The way they understood Christianity was through the lens of the crusades, so they perceived any Christian country as a militant threat to their existence. In that context, there was simply no way that America was going to align itself with European Christian countries. So prevalent was this warlike VIEW of Christianity that, in his April 8, 1805, journal entry, even Gen. William Eaton said of Muslim radicals, "We find it almost impossible to inspire these wild bigots with confidence in us or to persuade them that, being Christians, we can be otherwise than enemies to (Muslims). We have a difficult undertaking!" Amendment XI in the Treaty of Tripoli is not a simple historical declaration of national non-Christian origins or denial of America's religious roots, but a diplomatic negotiation intended to free U.S. sailors and ships and to avert further international attacks and warfare on the very young and war-torn United States. Why is it antagonists cite complex wartime negotiations and yet avoid the explicit words of our Founders during times of peace? John Jay, the first chief justice of the United States, appointed by George Washington, wrote to Jedidiah Morse Feb. 28, 1797 (the same year the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified), "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." John Adams, America's second president and the same one who signed and sent the Treaty of Tripoli to the Senate, just one year later delivered these words in a military address: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." And to which religion is Adams referring? He gave us an answer when he wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813. "The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite. ... And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were united." John Quincy Adams, America's sixth president, spoke at an Independence Day celebration in 1837: "Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Andrew Jackson, our seventh president, pointed to a Bible as he lay dying in 1845 and said, "That book, sir, is the rock on which our republic rests." How much clearer can it be? There are no contradictions between the preceding leadership sayings and those drafted by Joel Barlow, the author and diplomat of the Treaty of Tripoli, when one understands the historical, diplomatic and religious context of it all. America was founded as a Christian nation. Now whether or not it has remained one is the discussion for another day! www.creators.com. COPYRIGHT 2007 CHUCK NORRIS DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS SYNDICATE INC. |
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