No Tribo, you didn't. The verse in question, Genesis 2:17, says that if man eats the fruit of the tree, he will start dying that day.

"mooth mooth" (dying die) always has a cause. Eating the fruit for instance. But what was it about eating the fruit that caused Adam to start dying? The fact that eating the forbidden fruit was a sin and sin results in seperation from God. Adam would die spiritually the moment he ate the fruit, I'm not arguing against that point. I'm arguing that Genesis 2:17 doesn't say that, it only IMPLIES that. What Genesis 2:17 says is that if Adam at the fruit, he would start dying from that day and eventually die.

Now if someone says "The meaning of Genesis 2:17 is that eating the fruit would result in spiritual death", I would have to agree and disagree. Prima facia, Genesis 2:17 is completely concerned with physical death as a result of eating the forbidden fruit. Only by looking at other parts of the Bible can anyone say that Genesis 2:17 concerns spiritual death.

The fruit of the tree is not a fruit that you eat. the tree of knowledge of good and evil was Satan, the tree of life, Christ. Eve did not eat an apple or some other fruit, she partook of Satan, ie, had sex with him, so did Adam, either, Satan being supernatural appeared to him as a woman or it could have been a homosexual act. anyway, its not an apple as is so commonly taught, and wrongly. Cain was the seed of Satan, Abel the seed of Adam, fraternal twins if you will. That is why God rejected Cains offering. God said if you partake then in that day you will die, they did, as the bible says, a day to the lord is as a thousand years to man.

anyhow, this was fun, got another hurricane brewing so i'll be in and out as weather allows, this ought to stir the pot a little

Sharpshooter.....Nowhere in scripture does it say ANY of this stuff you just wrote here, about satan being intimate with adam and eve.
Nowhere.

Maybe you were just kidding..but if you were not.....

well then,

the "interpretation " of scripture that you just gave here ,

is a prime example of what is known as just man's interpretation (which is nothing more than just man's opinion).....

versus

the Holy Spirit given interpretation of scripture...which is the only right way to interpret scripture.....

otherwise, man can make scripture say any old thing man wants scripture to say.

Sharpshooter, Incorrect Answers like you just presented here, are a result of not being led of the Holy Spirit, and not rightly dividing and studying the Word of God .
Sorry.

So what you are saying - is that there is a document of the Minoans discussing the snake godess. What is the name of the book/document?

However, Abra - spider is not discussing his "belief" about it - he is discussing what he researched to "understand what is being said".

If you knew anything about logic - this would be obvious to you.

You're attributing that quote to Dennis Miller???

I heard that quote before he got out of grade school.

Actually - God did not "create" sin, because sin is the absense of Good, and truth. In effect - it only exists as a negative or falling short of the expected. Which is perfection. The same can be said of black (the absense of color - or light)
Cold (the steady decline of heat.) These are only concepts that measure the absense of what is being measured.

In a way - you are right. For this reason, Jesus came to earth, chose 12, and walked amoung them for three years - teaching them EXACTLY what the true meaning behind the words were. We have the account of what was most important of those teachings - it is called the New Testament. Despite having walked with these 12 (one of whom didn't get it - but it was meant to be that he would nt) Jesus said that he still had many more things to teach them - and thus, we have the eye witness accounts, as well as inspired correspondences to the churches planted throughout the "known world" that the disciples were able to reach. The authors of the New Testament commented on the very text we are examining - which is why we can validate the idea that there was a spiritual death, and not just a physical one, which as we can see through hindsight - was a fact.

So - You are right Tribo in considering the text describes a "spiritual death" in that the loss of eternal life, and spiritual unity with God was severed. Spider is right - in that the day they ate of the fruit - their physical death began. Albiet, a "slow" one - in terms of how we percieve time - but for all intents and purposes, for a life that was meant to be lived eternally in the Garden of Eden, 900 years might as well have been a "day"

Well - sort of. They did recognize back then, that Jesus was a great teacher, and considered him a Rabbi on the level of Shammai and Hillel, which is why they conspired to kill him. It would be fairly logical to think that a large number of the Jewish people, as well as the members of the Sanhedren themselves would have begun to take jesus' teachings to heart, thus effectng the way a number of the Law's of Moses were interpreted.

No, I never said that. I said that a snake is the vehicle of temptation in the story of The Tree of Knowledge in Genesis. The snake just also happens to be widely associated with the Goddess throughout history. I have actually demonstrated this information on a couple different threads if you would like to look. Not this one specifically because it would not be directly reflective of the topic. By this date, I am showing you that the height of Minoan culture and the worship of the Snake Goddess was a mere 87 years in difference. Thats a a little bit unnerving.


Minoan Culture


Conspicuous in their absence are the usual signs of a male-dominated society common to the Eastern Mediterranean in the second millennium BCE: no walled citadels, no fortifications, no temples to the gods, no large public sculpture, no clear evidence of a hierarchically structured society ruled by kings and priests, no boastful inscriptions.

Possibly when the Minoan script Linear A is deciphered a different view on the Minoan civilization will emerge, but until then the visual evidence alone describes an attractive, easy-going society centered on large labyrinthine palace-like buildings which seem to have served primarily, judging from the huge storage areas, as collection and distribution centers for a well-organized system of local agricultural production, and as the residence of local leaders and, possibly, artists and craftspeople. Who the leaders were is unknown, but circumstantial evidence indicates that women played a dominant role in Minoan religion and perhaps also in Minoan society.

One of the prime pieces of evidence in support of the view that women dominated Minoan culture is the "Snake Goddess." The grounds for this view were laid by Arthur Evans himself. It is clear from the model of Minoan religion constructed by Evans that he was influenced by the theories put forward by James Frazer in The Golden Bough (first published in 1890) that prehistoric religion centered on a dominant goddess of fertility whose young male consort's annual death and rebirth symbolized the decay and regrowth of vegetation.

Evans certainly supported prevailing views about the existence in the prehistoric period of a Mother Goddess (identifying as such several Neolithic clay figures found at Knossos) and so, when the "Snake Goddess" came to light in 1903, he not only identified her as a "goddess" but also claimed that she was worshiped by the Minoans as an aspect of the Mother Goddess. Evans thereby provided the basis for the argument that Minoans lived in a matrilineal, or even a matriarchal, society.

Crete experienced a series of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. The volcanic island Thera (Santorini), at about 70 km distance, erupted. The volcanic eruption and fallout was quite possibly larger than the Tambora eruption of 1815, the largest historical eruption on record. The eruption has been identified by ash fallout in eastern Crete, Egypt, and cores from the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean seas.Much written work was lost as it concerns this culture. They were also invaded by Around 1450 BC, the palaces were again disturbed. Some time later, around 1420 BC, the island was conquered by the Mycenaeans, who adapted Minoan script for their own proto-Greek language. After this, most Cretan cities and palaces went into decline; Knossos remained until 1200 BC.

In fact on this thread specifically I actually mentioned yet another legend from a people who pred-dated the writers of Genesis and some apparent "liberties" might have been taken with this story. This is an inversion of the more ancient Sumerian tale in which the goddess Ninhursag allows eight forbidden plants to grow in the garden of creation. Enki eats from them and is stricken. Ninhursag relents: "To the goddess Ninti I have given birth for you". Ninti means both 'female ruler of life' and 'female ruler of the rib'. Hmmm. What do you know, ribs also!

"Queen of the Mountain". The Sumerian earth and mother-goddess, and a goddess of fertility who created all vegetation. She is the consort of the supreme god Enki (and is as such identified with Damgalnunna). Ninhursag is one of the oldest members of the Sumerian pantheon and has prestigious titles such as 'mother of the gods' and 'mother of all children'. She is also called Nintu, "lady of bearth", and Ki, the earth. She was the tutelary deity of the Sumerian rulers, who styled themselves "children of Ninhursag".

A temple of Ninhursag was excavated near Tell Harriri (the ancient Mari) in Syria, near the Iraquian border.

Also Eljay, I forgot to add before I could not edit again that linguists are in fact still attempting to decipher some of the written evidence that was recovered from this lost Minoan civilization. Here is a little about that and in fact I was unaware of this myself so Im glad you had me look. I just always thought they had nothing due to take over and natural disaster but that would not be entirely true because we have vast archeological finds from this island.

The Linear A script appeared in the Middle Minoan period (1700 - 1550 BC). It was a syllable one, used a limited number of symbols and therefore are easier to study. The script, found on seals, instruments, tablets on the islands of Crete, Phera and Melos, includes from 77 to 100 symbols, each of them denoting a syllable. The language of them is still unknown, but it is for sure non-Indo-European, and can be referred to as one of the "Mediterranean" languages. This language did not make any distinction between long and short vowels, voiced and voiceless consonants, l and r. It would also appear that it was definitely non Indo-European in origion. Languages which used the script: Hellenic (Mycenaean Greek), non-Indo-European (Eteocretan). Linear A has roughly 90 symbols, thus most likely a syllabary much like Linear B. However, Linear A has resisted all attempts at decipherment because its underlying language is still unknown and probably will remain obscure since it doesn't seem to relate to any other surviving language in Europe or Western Asia.


Sumerian Language

While the cuneiform writing system was created and used at first only by the Sumerians, it did not take long before neighboring groups adopted it for their own use. By about 2500 BCE, the Akkadian, a Semitic-speaking people that dwelled north of the Sumerians, starting using cuneiform to write their own language. However, it was the ascendency of the Akkadian dynasty in 2300 BCE that positioned Akkadian over Sumerian as the primary language of Mesopotamia. While Sumerian did enjoy a quick revival, it eventually became a dead language used only in literary contexts, whereas Akkadian would continue to be spoken for the next two millenium and evolved into later (more famous) forms known as Babylonian and Assyrian.

Prior to your post I already gave you the reasons 1, 2, and 4 dear. In different words, but the same ideas.
I knew all that, and yes you are right those are the reasons why they did not accept my Lord as the Mesiah.

Your assertion about the Holy Virgin is still an error. The attacks on the Mommy from Heaven (as I personally call her), are attacks from the fundies to the Catholic Church which started about 200 years ago, and not from the Hebrews 2000 years ago.

Fair enough. Peace. I didnt really want the debate to go in that direction anyway. I am only telling you the assertions made by the Hebrews as but one of the reasons they do not find Jesus qualified for the designation of Messiah. Let me go into a little more detail on where the error is actually discerned.


It is the word "alma" specifically that was picked up on by these Christian scholars at some point and mistranslated to mean "virgin". Alma had always meant "young female" of which Mary was. Presumably she was very young, a teenager in fact. So that would have been an accurate description of her. I think this is where the Jews take issue. They feel like that's pretty haphazard and you are really taking liberties here and throwing meanings around. Can you blame them? They were sticklers for the details and wanted some attention paid to this text as it related to the coming of their Messiah. Of course as we know, that is but ONE mistranslation made much later. Its just that it happens to be one of the more humorous observations.

Its not very important to me as I do not follow the Christian nor the Catholic faith. It simply an observation.

There is a guy at work who believes the same thing. I thought he was a nice guy until I learned this. I can't speak for SharpShooter, but the guy at work believes that white people are the descendants of Adam and Eve while the other races are the descendants of Satan and Eve. What's truly scary is that there is absolutely no supporting material in the Bible to support this theory, but some people believe it whole heartedly.

Now THAT is TRULY scary!

But his understandings are his beliefs.

And you talk about knowing something about 'logic'?

Wouldn't that make them like "snake people"? I dont understand the conceptualization nor theory at all. Not to mention that very often at least throughout Medieval history (not saying all of course) a common theme for the depiction of the serpent in the Garden was that of female. So was it a lesbian encounter that transpired here? How could an impregnation result from that particular union? Hmm.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/France_Paris_Notre-Dame-Adam_and_Eve.jpg

Adam, Eve, and the (female) Serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. Medieval Christian art often depicted the Edenic Serpent as a woman, thus both emphasizing the Serpent's seductiveness as well as its relationship to Eve. (This connection might be due do the influence of Lilith, as well.) Several early Church Fathers, including Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius of Caesarea, interpreted the Hebrew "Heva" as not only the name of Eve, but in its aspirated form as "female serpent."

I suspect that Native Americans are descended from evolved earth humans and are not related to "Adam and Eve" (Ademic stock) at all. They are the "true human beings" who came from the earth and probably have very little, if any, alien or reptilian DNA. This may also be true of Africans and Mongolians. The Adam and Eve descendants are the descendants of a so-called "superior race" of beings brought here by "the gods" or galaxy aliens. Even these descendants are split between two different beings, one being the descendants of Cane and the other the descendants of Able who were fathered by two different beings. (Adam and the Nage snake man)

That's just my personal theory.

They were forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge and not the tree of life. So the only tree off limits was the tree of “The knowledge of Good and Evil”

Also they did die eventually as God said they would. Adam and Eve were emortal in the presence of God before they sinned.

eljay


I also think there is a good argument for the case of "spiritual death" - for it can be seen all through scripture that sin separates one from God, and that it was intended that they have eternal lif - but no longer do. (Thus the guarding of the tree of life.)



TRIBO:

that's the point i'm trying to make eljay - we have discussed this before , it has nothing to do with a physical death -


meaning the DAY they died "spiritually"!!

don't tell me i did not point this out - you just didn't read it spider!

i had already talked precisely on this point!

plus the fact you had ample opportunity to bring this up as part of what was meant af the 24 hr. death and you did not! only now after the fact! the whole reason i brought this subject up was to show that "THAT DAY" they died a death of their innocense or what you call spiritual death, of couse i already understood that a physical death would follow in its course. this was never meant to be a discourse of whether they lost there ability to live forever.