he didn';t say it but in not sayng he implied it was a physical death over time go read again plese. i had already brought what your stating to the forefront and his answer remained focused on die,die physical death over time, not one mention or 1 i'll grant you that this may have been the case also, your wrong MS.he means - it was a physical death only - if he now recants he's got a lot of "splainin to do to ricky" spideyyyyyyyy!!


or you'll have a lot of splaining to do either way.

Sort of like an angry Jewish mother who tells her son who disobeyed,

"You're dead to me!"



Just kidding. I don't comprehend what you mean by a "non physical death"

I don't think there is any such thing as death of spirit or spiritual death. There is only a discarding of the body, whatever plain of existence you are one.

JB

thats why i use the phrase non-physical -meaning other than physical - in this case A&E's death of innocence - of gaining of knew knowledge of good and evil - before they new neither as they did afterwaords, before they just "were" neither good or evil, they had no comparitive to go by, they were new. no - they could not even understand how good their creator was - they had no comparative - but they sure did afterwords - or so the story goes.

or were you even talking to me? were you addressing MS ???

Actually both of you. The death of innocence? Hummmmmm...
I don't really see that as death. It is the gaining of knowledge and experience and to me, that can only be a good thing.

You are not the same person you were when you were age five. Did that five year old die? No. He changed and grew. There was no death.

JB

if right now you knew nothing of good or evil and it was "ALL' given to you in a heartbeat - that is what i mean, you knew nothing of it one minute and the next it was all thrust upon you. a total loos of the innocence you had the moment before - remember when you said how mad you were about finding out you parents lied to you about Santa? well imagine that same innocent girl having all she knows now thrust upon her in an instant - that's what i mean by loss of innocense

If a thing like that happened all of sudden, it would be a shock indeed. Sounds like Eve was raped.... that's a loss of innocence.

There is a theory that Mary (mom of Jesus) was in fact raped and this is part of the reason her and Joseph might have concocted this story to begin with. Mary was terrified that if anyone found out, she might very well be stoned to death which they did to women in this time period. If they were sexually assaulted generally it was considered their fault in some respect. Its only one theory however and I have never researched it so I dont know how much supportive evidence there is for it. Carry on.

I suppose that all depends on what you mean by 'innocence'.

To me 'innocence' means to be without 'blame'. A girl who is raped is still 'innocent'.

Sounds more like you're using 'innocence' here to simply mean naive or inexperienced.

Is something bad happens to you, that shouldn't affect your 'innocence'.

I don't think that Mary and Joseph concocted any such story. Who would believe them?

Surely even if Mary had been told by angels that she was going to have a divine birth she wouldn't be telling people. They would then stone her to death for blaspheme!

Clearly Mary and Joseph would have had to publicly pretend that Joseph was the father! To claim anything else would have had her stoned to death.

But you are right about that. Prior to Jesus' teachings at the well, people were still stoning sinners to death. And I'm sure they continued to stone them to death after Jesus taught his views. After all, word didn't get around very fast back then as there was no radio or TV. And not everyone would have agreed with Jesus or believed him.

In fact, the Jews never did accept Jesus.

So why aren't Jews still stoning sinners to death today?

That's an interesting question.

Why did they quit obeying God if they don't believe that Jesus spoke for God?

Clearly the God of the Old Testament wants us to stone sinners to death. Jesus was the only one who suggested to no longer to that. So those who don't accept that Jesus was God should still be stoning sinners to death shouldn't they?

I don't think that Mary and Joseph concocted any such story. Who would believe them?

Surely even if Mary had been told by angels that she was going to have a divine birth she wouldn't be telling people. They would then stone her to death for blaspheme!

Clearly Mary and Joseph would have had to publicly pretend that Joseph was the father! To claim anything else would have had her stoned to death.

But you are right about that. Prior to Jesus' teachings at the well, people were still stoning sinners to death. And I'm sure they continued to stone them to death after Jesus taught his views. After all, word didn't get around very fast back then as there was no radio or TV. And not everyone would have agreed with Jesus or believed him.

In fact, the Jews never did accept Jesus.

So why aren't Jews still stoning sinners to death today?

That's an interesting question.

Why did they quit obeying God if they don't believe that Jesus spoke for God?

Clearly the God of the Old Testament wants us to stone sinners to death. Jesus was the only one who suggested to no longer to that. So those who don't accept that Jesus was God should still be stoning sinners to death shouldn't they?

I suppose that all depends on what you mean by 'innocence'.

To me 'innocence' means to be without 'blame'. A girl who is raped is still 'innocent'.

Sounds more like you're using 'innocence' here to simply mean naive or inexperienced.

Is something bad happens to you, that shouldn't affect your 'innocence'.

Spidy said a physical death (dying) took place over a period of time.
That is correct, Tribo..but also, a spiritual death(cut off from God) happenend also..instantly... when man disobeyed.

SPIRITUAL death( the INSTANT death) LED to Physical death (the dying over a period of time).

things changed james as time went on and it became unacceptable to do such things, the age of enlightment and reason entered the picture, your a philosopher - you know that -

True Path Walkers:


Obligations of the True Path Walkers
To bring back the natural harmony that humans once enjoyed.
To save the planet from present practices of destruction.
To find and re-employ real truth.
To promote true balance between both genders.
To share and be less materialistic.
To become rid of prejudice.
To learn to be related.

To be kind to animals and take no more than we need.
To play with one's children and love each equally and fairly.
To be brave and courageous, enough so,
to take a stand and make a commitment.
To understand what Generations Unborn really means.
To accept the Great Mystery
in order to end foolish argument over religion.

Yes, I know the reality of things on the ground.

But from a religious point of view when did enlightenment and reason override God's laws?

So you're saying that humans have more compassion and wisdom than the biblical God?

Sounds good to me, but how does that go over in religious circles?

It would be nice to see humanity get to that point.

well there you go spidey - now i have a rabbi in chicago and morning star and miles and myself saying it was meant to be taken as a ""non physical"" death and eljay on the verge, so how many holy spirits do i have to listen to to get the real truth? or is it just yours that count's????

The first account we have of the devil is found in that purely scientific book called Genesis, and is as follows: "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made, and he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. And the Lord God said Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life: and eat, and live forever. Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So he drove out the man, and he placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life."


According to this account the promise of the devil was fulfilled to the very letter, Adam and Eve did not die, and they did become as gods, knowing good and evil.



The account shows, however, that the gods dreaded education and knowledge then just as they do now. The church still faithfully guards the dangerous tree of knowledge, and has exerted in all ages her utmost power to keep mankind from eating the fruit thereof. The priests have never ceased repeating the old falsehood and the old threat: "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." From every pulpit comes the same cry, born of the same fear: "Lest they eat and become as gods, knowing good and evil." For this reason, religion hates science, faith detests reason, theology is the sworn enemy of philosophy, and the church with its flaming sword still guards the hated tree, and like its supposed founder, curses to the lowest depths the brave thinkers who eat and become as gods.



If the account given in Genesis is really true, ought we not, after all, to thank this serpent? He was the first schoolmaster, the first advocate of learning, the first enemy of ignorance, the first to whisper in human ears the sacred word liberty, the creator of ambition, the author of modesty, of inquiry, of doubt, of investigation, of progress and of civilization.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/gods.html