Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: problem
SkyHook5652 Joined Sat 08/23/08 Posts: 4063	Fri 09/12/08 02:48 PM Edited by SkyHook5652 on Fri 09/12/08 02:56 PM
Spider wrote: What makes me more qualified? Well, the fact that I want to understand what the scripture says, not look for holes. The fact that I research the originals and look at the meanings of the words, in order to understand the meaning the author wanted to convey. But that's just self-delusion. You claim that you want to understand the meaning that the author wanted to convey. So all you end up doing is overlooking any potential problems or inconsistencies and just try to support the story because you'd like to believe for some strange reason. That's not being 'more qualified', that's simply being biased toward supporting the stories. This is in fact precisely what all the translaters and transcribers of the Bible throughout history were attempting to do. After all, who's going to even bother transcribing the stories if they don't believe they hold truths? So you just search around to find the transcribtions that you can best fit into you bias of wanting the story to be true. So in that sense you're only 'more qualified' for being biased to what to support the stories. This actually 'disqualifies' you from have a sincere objective view. That's not how I took what he said. I took it to mean the exact opposite. That instead of trying to prove it false by poking holes in it, or blindly accepting it as true based on the word of some third party, he wanted to gain a full understanding what the origianl author was trying to communicate. In other words, a true and accurate "translation" instead of an "interpretation." "But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 09/12/08 02:51 PM
God cannot look upon sin...sin and God don't mix...and disobedience is sin. So if God cannot look upon disobedience then how would he know when people are being disobedent? He must be peeking somehow. BUT God in His mercy saw humanity floundering in his sins, and later sent Jesus to Save us from our sins..and as a result of what Jesus did on that cross(He BORE all our sins and sicknesses on that cross) Jesus BORE all our disobediences? That doesn't even make any sense. How to your bear a disobedience? Moreover, if he bore the world's disobediences then why do people continue to disobey? I ask you the same question I asked Spider. Why are you attracted to the idea that you are responsible for God having to send his Son to die for you blatant disobedience of God? Do you feel that you have been that disobedient of God in your life that someone needed to be nailed to a cross to pay for your terrible blatant and willful disobedience? You do realize that if you believe this story then you are to blame for Christ's crucifixion. It was your blatant disobedience of God that made that act necessary. You're guilty of purposeful rebellion against your creator, according to this story. Let me ask you this,... If you discovered that the Bible was not true would you be elated, or disapointed?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 09/12/08 02:53 PM
Explain exactly what you know? When did you convert to Christianity? What are your personal qualifications for the position ? What makes you better equipped to interpret the scripture than any other person that reads it? I did not perceive her statement to be humorous whatsoever. I have had the same problem in fact. What makes me more qualified? Well, the fact that I want to understand what the scripture says, not look for holes. The fact that I research the originals and look at the meanings of the words, in order to understand the meaning the author wanted to convey. If JB was serious, then what you two are saying is that the translators interpretation trumps the authors intentions, which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't honestly believe that either of you think that. There is no way that a rational and sane human being could believe that the translation is always 100% accurate and when it differs from the original text, then the translation MUST be right. I am damn serious. I expect the English translation to be accurate. If it is not accurate then people should stop going around claiming it is the perfect and accurate word of God almighty. I expect the English version to say what it means and mean what it says, just like Feralcat does. Is that too much to ask? People can't be expected to seek out the original scripts and try to learn another language and try to figure out what every little word means or why is was or was not used in the English translation. That is ridiculous. Either the English translation is accurate and says what it means and means what it says or it is flawed and mistranslated. You can't have it both ways. JB

splendidlife Joined Fri 03/21/08 Posts: 1171	Fri 09/12/08 02:54 PM Edited by splendidlife on Fri 09/12/08 02:55 PM
God cannot look upon sin...sin and God don't mix...and disobedience is sin. If god created ALL... God created sin. If a polar opposite of this "perfect" and absolute good exists, one would gather that the one who created it COULD in fact look upon it. It would seem it would have to serve some purpose in natural balance. Besides, how could disobedience, according to one particular doctrine, make it so Universally?

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/12/08 02:57 PM
Plus you must keep in mind that not everyone observes the concept of "sin" or accepts it or goes along with that premise. I tend to use my own conscious as a moral compass for my actions. I dont rely on anything else to tell me what is permissible or crossing the line. I enjoy taking responsibility for my own life in fact.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 09/12/08 02:58 PM
Skyhook wrote: That's not how I took what he said. I took it to mean the exact opposite. That instead of trying to prove it false by poking holes in it, or blindly accepting it as true based on the word of some third party, he wanted to gain a full understanding what the origianl author was trying to communicate. In other words, a true "translation" instead of an "interpretation." "But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller Oh, I'm absolutely sure that how he meant it Sky. The problem is that there is no such thing as a 'true translation'. All that exists are human interpretations. That's my point. All of these stories have been transcribed and translated into different languages. Those transcribers and translators have all added their own bias (which would obviously be in favor of the stories). After all, they woudln't even be transcribing them if they weren't supportive of them in the first place. My question still stands. Why would anyone want to believe in such a dismal 'man/God' relationship if they have even the slightest reason to question its validity? Why would anyone want to believe that we are at odds with our creator? Surely anyone would be overthrilled with joy to discover that the bible is a lie. What better news could anyone ever dream of hearing?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 09/12/08 03:03 PM
" That day you eat of the tree, you shall surely die".... is referring to SPIRITUAL DEATH ...which too place THAT VERY DAY that Adam and Eve Ate of the tree that God said NOT to eat from.... and this spirtual death that took place instantly that day, was also followed by eventual PHYSICAL death( the proces of DYING that followed). Some even lived to be 900 years old back then......so again.... the scripture is not referring to physical death, but spiritual death that took place " the day they ate of that tree in the garden".... which caused SEPARATION from God.... INSTANTLY when adam and eve disobeyed. God cannot look upon sin...sin and God don't mix...and disobedience is sin. BUT God in His mercy saw humanity floundering in his sins, and later sent Jesus to Save us from our sins..and as a result of what Jesus did on that cross(He BORE all our sins and sicknesses on that cross), we are now able to be RESTORED back into FELLOWSHIP with the FATHER.... thru BELIEVING AND ACCEPTING THE ONE SENT TO SAVE US AND GIVE US ANOTHER CHANCE.....CHRIST JESUS!!! 1. What makes you think it meant spiritual death? It does not say that. 2. How is spiritual death even possible? Spirit is eternal. 3. Disobedience is sin..... what ever happened to free will? This is a perfect example of a story that makes no sense told so many times it is burned into people's brains and they accept it as truth because they cannot think for themselves enough see how it makes no sense at all. Unless God was the master and humans are the slaves who live under his almighty command and his proclamation that disobedience is sin and the wages of sin is death. This, you claim is God's own law. If his children disobeyed, their punishment was DEATH. Rather severe punishment from a loving father don't you think? JB

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 09/12/08 03:03 PM
I am damn serious. I expect the English translation to be accurate. If it is not accurate then people should stop going around claiming it is the perfect and accurate word of God almighty. I expect the English version to say what it means and mean what it says, just like Feralcat does. Is that too much to ask? People can't be expected to seek out the original scripts and try to learn another language and try to figure out what every little word means or why is was or was not used in the English translation. That is ridiculous. Either the English translation is accurate and says what it means and means what it says or it is flawed and mistranslated. You can't have it both ways. JB That's an excellent point Jeannie. When a person finds themsleves studying ancient translations and reaching for the most vague and twisted meanings of things to try to perserve a story of their God that should be a neon sign right there that they are on the wrong tract to seeking their creator. I don't think God resides in a book. A child should be able to know God even before they know what the word 'religion' means. God is God. Religion is religion. Religion truly is idol worship IMHO.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 09/12/08 03:07 PM
If his children disobeyed, their punishment was DEATH. Rather severe punishment from a loving father don't you think? JB Yeah really. This implies that God doesn't even know the meaning of being a mentor which IMHO is the true essence of fathering skills. Imagine that you have kids and you tell them that if they disobey you they will die. That's a pretty lazy parent don't you think? A parent who doesn't even want to take the time to teach. Those are the kinds of parent who answer a child's question by simplying saying, "Because I said so!" That's not parenting skills. Any idiot can do that! This would suggest that God is an uncaring parent. Certainly not a loving one who is patient and willing to mentor his childern.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 09/12/08 03:16 PM Edited by MorningSong on Fri 09/12/08 03:31 PM
Because SPIRITUAL DEATH TOOK PLACE IN THE GARDEN ,WHEN ADAM AND EVE DISOBEYED , WE ALL ALL ALL ARE NOW ALSO BORN SPIRITUALLY DEAD.... BECAUSE WE ARE DECENDANTS OF ADAM.... AND OUR SPIRITS REMAIN DEAD ,UNTIL OUR SPIRIT IS BORN AGAIN!!! THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN..... WHICH CAN ONLY COME BY ACCEPTING JESUS... THE ONE SENT TO BE OUR SAVIOUR. Again.... THRU ACCEPTING JESUS, OUR FELLOWSHIP IS ONCE MORE .... RESTORED BACK WITH THE FATHER.

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/12/08 03:19 PM
I dont know about that. I like to think of my spirit as very much alive and kickin. Speak for yourself there little missy.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 09/12/08 03:19 PM
When God created man, God meant for man to dwell with God forever...both physically and spirtually. But sin separated us from God,thus causing our spirtual death and eventual physical death . BUT when we believers are ressurrrected into our new bodies, there will be NO MORE DEATH.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 09/12/08 03:23 PM
Because SPIRITUAL DEATH TOOK PLACE IN THE GARDEN ,WHEN ADAM AND EVE DISOBEYED , WE ALL ALL ALL ARE NOW ALSO BORN SPIRTUALLY DEAD.... BECAUSE WE ARE DECENDANTS OF ADAM.... AND OUR SPIRTS REMAIN DEAD ,UNTIL OUR SPIRIT IS BORN AGAIN!!! THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN..... WHICH CAN ONLY COME BY ACCEPTING JESUS... THE ONE SENT TO BE OUR SAVIOUR. Again.... THRU ACCEPTING JESUS, OUR FELLOWSHIP IS ONCE MORE .... RESTORED BACK WITH THE FATHER. Speak for yourself morningsong. I was not born spiritually dead. I and the spirit are one. If it were not for the life stream of spirit flowing through me, I would not be alive. I don't know who told you that stuff, but it just is not true. JB

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/12/08 03:32 PM Edited by Krimsa on Fri 09/12/08 03:33 PM
I think I found something else you have wrong MS And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree. -- Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. -- Genesis 1:24 Notice that God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants and animals, rather than create them directly. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. I just felt left out since I didnt have a ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture like most everyone else.

tribo Joined Mon 05/12/08 Posts: 5577	Fri 09/12/08 04:39 PM Edited by tribo on Fri 09/12/08 04:49 PM
Explain exactly what you know? When did you convert to Christianity? What are your personal qualifications for the position ? What makes you better equipped to interpret the scripture than any other person that reads it? I did not perceive her statement to be humorous whatsoever. I have had the same problem in fact. What makes me more qualified? Well, the fact that I want to understand what the scripture says, not look for holes. The fact that I research the originals and look at the meanings of the words, in order to understand the meaning the author wanted to convey. If JB was serious, then what you two are saying is that the translators interpretation trumps the authors intentions, which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't honestly believe that either of you think that. There is no way that a rational and sane human being could believe that the translation is always 100% accurate and when it differs from the original text, then the translation MUST be right. I am damn serious. I expect the English translation to be accurate. If it is not accurate then people should stop going around claiming it is the perfect and accurate word of God almighty. I expect the English version to say what it means and mean what it says, just like Feralcat does. Is that too much to ask? People can't be expected to seek out the original scripts and try to learn another language and try to figure out what every little word means or why is was or was not used in the English translation. That is ridiculous. Either the English translation is accurate and says what it means and means what it says or it is flawed and mistranslated. You can't have it both ways. JB AGREED!! emphatically!! and here's the kicker!!! - "IF" the book was meant for ""everyone"" for """all times""" then an all wise god would have known that and done such to make it that way. but "HERE" we have a book(s) written at diff. times and thrown together in a haphazard way in 3 different languages [Aramaic and Hebrew and Greek] and then later translated [after the facts] a myriad of times in to [DOZEN"S] of other and more modern languages, and were now expected to believe on faith that this is ">>>""THE""<<<" [original] >>>>>word of god<<<<<. and the modern translator's keep changing the meaning it seems like, every generation to suit their needs as to making sure that what is read can be defended ad infinitum by those claiming to "UDERSTAND" what was originally meant. the claimed "TEXTUS RECEPTUS" is NOT the received text but written down after the facts who knows how long after it was originally said to be "spoken" so FAITH" is all one can have to put faith in what is read and take for pure unadultratred infallible TRUTH! since it was not written in a way where it could be perfectly understood for all times - this is just more proof for it being meant for those in the world as it existed then - not now. ooopppsss! wrote this before i read the rest of the post - sorry.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 09/12/08 04:55 PM
I'm still waiting for an answer as to why anyone would want it to be true? Surely, even the most devoted Christian would have to be thrilled beyond belief to discover that the Bible is a totally fabricated manmade fable. Surely no one in their right mind would be happy to discover that it is true. It doesn't matter if they are willing to accept Christ as their 'savior'. It would still then be true that he had to suffer and die for their rebellious disobedient nature. That's what the whole story is all about. It's a story about humanity being at odds with their creator and, at the very best, all they can hope to do is confess that they have been utter rebellious disobedience jerks and they owe their creator a serious debt of gratitude for suffering for their arrogant disobedience. What a disgusting picture of a man/God relationship. It's a totally dismal failed picture of creation. It doens't "win" by having Christ crucified. On the contrary that just makes things worse! That just means that we are such dismal arrogant jerks that our very own creator had to be crucified to pay for our disgusting behavior. It means that we are disgusting failures. It's a terrible story, if true! I pray to the highest power of all creation that the Bible is the biggest lie mankind ever made up! And I'm definitely going to assume that it is. After all, I see a myriad of information pointing to why it can't be true, and nothing worthy of seriously consideration to believe that it might be true. So why would I want to believe it on pure faith alone? If there's no sound reason to believe it then by all means, don't believe it! Why would anyone want to believe it if they didn't absolutely have to?

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 09/12/08 04:57 PM Edited by MorningSong on Fri 09/12/08 05:01 PM
Yes Jeannie.....man's spirit is ETERNAL..... but still "Spiritually DEAD" , cause man's spirit is SEPARATED or CUT OFF from God. But man's spirit can be BORN AGAIN ,and RECONNECTED with God, thru Believing and Accepting Jesus ... the One Sent to Save Us. Man's spirit will be eternally restored back with God ..... or remain eternally separated from God....depending on whether one recieves or rejects Jesus...

tribo Joined Mon 05/12/08 Posts: 5577	Fri 09/12/08 04:59 PM
I think I found something else you have wrong MS And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree. -- Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. -- Genesis 1:24 Notice that God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants and animals, rather than create them directly. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. I just felt left out since I didnt have a ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture like most everyone else. I've heard why, but i'll let them answer it for you K, i'm tired.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 09/12/08 05:02 PM
You guys are so uptight and angry. It's Friday, do something fun instead of trying to flame a guy who doesn't care.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Fri 09/12/08 05:04 PM
I think I found something else you have wrong MS And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree. -- Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. -- Genesis 1:24 Notice that God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants and animals, rather than create them directly. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. I just felt left out since I didnt have a ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture like most everyone else. I've heard why, but i'll let them answer it for you K, i'm tired. This is called taking scripture out of context.... Krimsa.... read the scripture FOLLOWING.... where God Said He CREATED... read the WHOLE of God's Word...NOT just parts....