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Tribo when speaking of that day you shall surely die.. This was the meaning of the curse. Death was not spoken of before then. Satan tells them that it was not true they would not die. What if what you are saying would be true the fruit killed them. The fruit is for all healings along with its leaves. It was not a death fruit or Rev 22 would not speak of it as it does. The death was you would not live forever. The sins of the fathers. This sin was not so much Eves as it was Adams responcibility to stop eve. The Man covers the Wife and is responcible for her. (not always but that is another topic) The curse being lifted is death in Rev 22 and in Gen the curse was given. The tree of Life. Just what does that mean? Blessings...Miles Well be careful using the word "surely" because it was "not in the original text." So why use it? JB |
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 And dont call me "Surely."
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And dont call me "Surely." Quote from "Naked Gun" right?
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Actually i think it was the origional "Airplane". Leslie Nielsen. A riot.
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Well when a simple word like "surely" is used and I assume there was an important reason that word was used in translation, and then I am told that it was not in the "original text" then I wonder how many important words were changed and misinterpreted. No wonder so many people interpret the Bible so many different ways and argue about it so much.
I cannot today, pick up a Bible and trust the words I read. JB |
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Tribo when speaking of that day you shall surely die.. This was the meaning of the curse. Death was not spoken of before then. Satan tells them that it was not true they would not die. What if what you are saying would be true the fruit killed them. The fruit is for all healings along with its leaves. It was not a death fruit or Rev 22 would not speak of it as it does. The death was you would not live forever. The sins of the fathers. This sin was not so much Eves as it was Adams responcibility to stop eve. The Man covers the Wife and is responcible for her. (not always but that is another topic) The curse being lifted is death in Rev 22 and in Gen the curse was given. The tree of Life. Just what does that mean? Blessings...Miles it never says SATAN miles.......the beast that was wiser than the others "god" had made of the field.........SEEMS TO BE MAN......you have made it to be as SATAN AS A HORNED DEVIL OF THE SINGULAR NOTION....... it is clearly spoken in text that men are as BRUTE BEASTS IF THEY HAVE NOT WISDOM YET....... it was a simple MAN........ it was the story of the internal workings of the mind of all man toward "god" or the truth...... hid from the truth......that means "didn't like it"....what hides from something they like.... but when in "heaven" or the "garden" they loved the truth, and they were not ashamed....... but saying that when man is BORN he will be purposed for a time to RUN from the truth, as despising it, as it is unnatural to the natural mind..... there is nothing born mortal that from the second it pops from the womb is NOT crawling towards physical death, and also emotional death that ignorance leads all to, as when born all are as lambs to the slaughter.... but you cannot except this, as this makes all others that are not of the same exact belief as yourself as OK, as EQUAL to yourself, and this CANNOT BE, lol........ if text makes two groups, it is false....plain and simple.... man is supposed to "stop" his wife, lol..... please, this pits MAN AGAINST WOMEN.....DIVISIVE how can a mortal man love as unconditional as the "father" in heaven, if his WIFE IS THE EVIL ONE, REPRESENTING EVEN SATAN IF SHE DOES NOT FOLLOW SUCH DIVISIVE TEACHINGS......... the strong arm of dictatorship and condemnation ring from every ounce of such beliefs, as these teachings have NO OTHER CHOICE BUT TO CREATE SUCH THINGS, WHICH WILL CREATE REBELLION IN ALL THAT HEAR OR ARE TOUCHED BY SUCH, WHICH IS SELF BECOME DIVIDED AGAINST SELF.......... if it makes a evil and a good sect, it is of divide, and WILL NOT STAND.......IT CANONT BE OF PEACE MILES....... GREATER TRUTH MUST BE OF GREATER PEACE if all words are as prophecy, then they apply to the unseen and the literal, and the TWO meanings MUST coincide and not contradict, nor can they oppose one other jot or tittle written elsewhere in text, OR CREATE ANYTHING BUT PEACE WITHOUT EFFORT IF BELIEVED....... please, there is no mention by the scholars that none can have an ear less the "father" call, none can have an "eye" to see less the "father call".... but any that do not believe are said to have been "told" the truth, and sperned mercy and truth, and believed to be as "evil" and "lost" ones until accepting the same beliefs, lol...... divide.......divide.....divide..... it is also written that none have GREATER WILL than "god", so what man creates divide with teachings that are "not of divide", but since such things are of a divided self, all divide is found, and seperate oneself even more from true love that TRUTH must create........ will not man if believing in things that divide oneself from neighbors by convincing others are of "evil" teachings, be himself as divided asunder, and as seperated from "god" which was said to be as seperated from all "love"....... so what that is of divide is as from love.......please |
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Tribo, You aren't reading my posts or understanding what I'm saying, re-read my posts and then post any questions. I can't be any more clear about what the text says IN HEBREW (not Greek, Genesis in Greek would be a translation from Hebrew). Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof [thou shalt surely die.] "thou shalt surely die" is actually "dying die". The best translation to English would be "dying you shall die". The word DYING indicates that death is beginning, it is in the infinitive sense. In other words, the death is on-going. The word DIE is imperfect tense. In other words, the death will be at some future date. DAY MEANS DAY in this verse. You have been confused about what I'm saying and I'm trying to explain it. YOU HAVE NOT YET UNDERSTOOD MY POINT. I have read your responses and can assure you that your questions reveal that you haven't gotten what I'm trying to convey yet. The caps are for emphasis, not yelling. Please be mature about this, okay? I accept my part for my posts not being clear, but I think that if you slow down and stop assuming you know what I'm saying and instead focus on my actual words, you will understand this. wel if i read yourr presumtion on this one more time im going to die die -  you are trying your hardest to prove that is is the beginning of a long time race to death by A&E i'm trying to show that it was a "spiritual death only which makes it ctear as to whats bieng said! mooth/surely both mean die!! the text says die,die mooth mooth!! now the LXX takes the liberty to say die by death - which does not change the masoretic text at all. die die/die by death - both meant to die! - the problem is when? i say that DAY!! you "over time" I'm saying your wrong,when they ate the fruit they lost there pre-fall status as sinless beings, they as pre-fall creations were neither [good or bad] they were as children, they knew neither! this awakening to good and evil was the DEATH of their direct connection to god being spoken of not the loss of their physical life. read! |
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if text is as prophecy, and CANNOT FAIL, and IF text is of any truth, then as mankind "AS A WHOLE IS LOOKED INTO", what all mankind has ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED AND DONE SO FAR tells what the actual meanings of text are, as are they not supposed to be the tellings of human history and future......
why is there any need for some interpretation that deviates from actuallity, and this would certainally seems to serve as the GREATEST PROOF OF ALL MEANINGS IN TEXT, LOL........ WHAT HAS MANKIND ACTUALLY LIVED AND DONE.... peace |
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Tribo,
dying die <> die die Dying is an action and as such it can be prolonged, such as "He's dying to get out of here" or "My grandmother is dying of cancer". To Die is an event. You might be dying of cancer for six months, but you will only die of cancer once. |
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For Bible experts, be prepared to discuss the English version and stop making that lame excuse about flaws in the translations because you only make your Bible appear untrustworthy an flawed. So those who know more should pretend to not know, so that the uninformed can win the argument? JB, I know you couldn't have been serious when you posted that, please be serious. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/12/08 01:36 PM
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Explain exactly what you know? When did you convert to Christianity? What are your personal qualifications for the position ? What makes you better equipped to interpret the scripture than any other person that reads it? I did not perceive her statement to be humorous whatsoever. I have had the same problem in fact.
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Tribo, dying die <> die die Dying is an action and as such it can be prolonged, such as "He's dying to get out of here" or "My grandmother is dying of cancer". To Die is an event. You might be dying of cancer for six months, but you will only die of cancer once. yes but were talking here of what "type" of death they died that "DAY" since they did not die physically. they died that day to their pure innocence they had before the fall!! it would have been "VERY" easy for god to have made it plain to them if it were to be a case of slow death if that was the case - he could have left out mooth all together! |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Fri 09/12/08 01:50 PM
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Explain exactly what you know? When did you convert to Christianity? What are your personal qualifications for the position ? What makes you better equipped to interpret the scripture than any other person that reads it? I did not perceive her statement to be humorous whatsoever. I have had the same problem in fact. What makes me more qualified? Well, the fact that I want to understand what the scripture says, not look for holes. The fact that I research the originals and look at the meanings of the words, in order to understand the meaning the author wanted to convey. If JB was serious, then what you two are saying is that the translators interpretation trumps the authors intentions, which is absolutely ridiculous. I don't honestly believe that either of you think that. There is no way that a rational and sane human being could believe that the translation is always 100% accurate and when it differs from the original text, then the translation MUST be right. |
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Actually i think it was the origional "Airplane". Leslie Nielsen. A riot. |
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Tribo, dying die <> die die Dying is an action and as such it can be prolonged, such as "He's dying to get out of here" or "My grandmother is dying of cancer". To Die is an event. You might be dying of cancer for six months, but you will only die of cancer once. yes but were talking here of what "type" of death they died that "DAY" since they did not die physically. they died that day to their pure innocence they had before the fall!! it would have been "VERY" easy for god to have made it plain to them if it were to be a case of slow death if that was the case - he could have left out mooth all together! They didn't die that day, which is my point and you seem to not be getting it. In Hebrew, is says that they would start dying the day they eat the fruit and eventually die. The words are literally "dying die". Hebrew needs a lot of help to translate to English. "dying die" doesn't mean much in English, but in Hebrew "dying die" means "start dying and eventually die". |
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muwth muwth (dying die) is used in 10 verses in the Bible. Each time it means something to the effect of "your death has been put into motion". It indicates that you are dying and will die at some unspecified time. If you don't believe me, that's cool. Ask a Rabbi what "muwth muwth" (mooth mooth) means. Or for that matter ask anyone who has studied the term in Hebrew. I've taken you to the water, if you don't want to drink, then don't. No skin off my nose.
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muwth muwth (dying die) is used in 10 verses in the Bible. Each time it means something to the effect of "your death has been put into motion". It indicates that you are dying and will die at some unspecified time. If you don't believe me, that's cool. Ask a Rabbi what "muwth muwth" (mooth mooth) means. Or for that matter ask anyone who has studied the term in Hebrew. I've taken you to the water, if you don't want to drink, then don't. No skin off my nose. well that's strange spidey - it was a rabbi who told me that the death they died was not a physical one but a spiritual one. now your saying differently? hmmm? |
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Spider wrote: What makes me more qualified? Well, the fact that I want to understand what the scripture says, not look for holes. The fact that I research the originals and look at the meanings of the words, in order to understand the meaning the author wanted to convey. But that's just self-delusion. You claim that you want to understand the meaning that the author wanted to convey. So all you end up doing is overlooking any potential problems or inconsistencies and just try to support the story because you'd like to believe for some strange reason. That's not being 'more qualified', that's simply being biased toward supporting the stories. This is in fact precisely what all the translaters and transcribers of the Bible throughout history were attempting to do. After all, who's going to even bother transcribing the stories if they don't believe they hold truths? So you just search around to find the transcribtions that you can best fit into you bias of wanting the story to be true. So in that sense you're only 'more qualified' for being biased to what to support the stories. This actually 'disqualifies' you from have a sincere objective view. My only question for you would be why? Why are you so determined to believe that there are demonic serpents who coerce otherwise innocent people into doing things that are against the will of God? Why are you so determined to believe that all of mankind is responsible for having fallen short of the Glory of their creator and that they all deserve to die if not 'saved' by grace? Why are you so determined to believe that God had to send his only begotten Son to be brutally crucified on your behalf so that you could be forgive you willfill and sinful disobedience of God. Why are you so determined to believe a story that has mankind at such odds with his creator? Why is that so attractive to you? I can honestly say that if the story is true then I am totally depressed and ashamed of the human condition. Even to beg for forgiveness is a shameful act that can only serve to confess that we are indeed guilty of willfully turning against God. I personally don't believe that I ever willfully turned against my creator and therefore to confess that I'm guilty of doing that would be a lie. Rather than bending over backwards trying to make an incoherent and inconsistent story appear to possibly hold some truth if we stretch for really absurd solutions, I would perfer to just look at those absurdities and inconsistencies and rejoice in the fact that the story most likely isn't true. Who could not celebrate with the utmost joy upon having discovered that we never fell from grace from our creator, and he never had to send his son to be nailed to a pole to pay for our willful and rebellious disobedience? Surely that would be the greatest news you could ever possibly here? Surely you would not be disappointed to discover that we are not guilty of all the terrible things the Bible claims that we are guilty for. If you would be disappointed to discover that the Bible is not true then I can only say that I feel extremely sorry for you. Why you would be disappointed to discover that we are not guilty of all those things would be totally beyond me. I maintain that the Bible cannot possibly be true. I have given a myriad of reasons on these forums why this must be the case. I'll share one of those reason right now for anyone who might be interested in hearing it. We know today that mankind was not always around. We know that there were times in prehistory when primitive beasts and plants lived when there were no humans around. We know that those animals and plants died, and suffered from natural disasters. Therefore it is impossible for mankind to be responsible for having brought death and imperfection into the world. We can't be guilty of what the Bible claims. It simply isn't possible. Death and destruction existed long before mankind ever came onto the scene. What's left to do? We can either rejoice in the truth that the story is false and that we are not guilty of all the nonsense the Bible blames us for. Or we can ignore what the real world is telling us in favor of supporting a grossly inconsistent myth that claims that we are terrible sinners who have rejected God to the point where God had to send his only begotten Son to be nailed to a pole so that he could somehow forgive only the ones who accept this slaughter to save their souls. Why anyone would even want to believe in this picture is totally beyond me. I'll just never understand why anyone would even want to believe it if they have a choice to not believe it. The history of the universe itself is telling us that the story can't be true! Break out the champagne!  We're not guilty! |
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" That day you eat of the tree, you shall surely die"....
is referring to SPIRITUAL DEATH ...which too place THAT VERY DAY that Adam and Eve Ate of the tree that God said NOT to eat from.... and this spirtual death that took place instantly that day, was also followed by eventual PHYSICAL death( the proces of DYING that followed). Some even lived to be 900 years old back then......so again.... the scripture is not referring to physical death, but spiritual death that took place " the day they ate of that tree in the garden".... which caused SEPARATION from God.... INSTANTLY when adam and eve disobeyed. God cannot look upon sin...sin and God don't mix...and disobedience is sin. BUT God in His mercy saw humanity floundering in his sins, and later sent Jesus to Save us from our sins..and as a result of what Jesus did on that cross(He BORE all our sins and sicknesses on that cross), we are now able to be RESTORED back into FELLOWSHIP with the FATHER.... thru BELIEVING AND ACCEPTING THE ONE SENT TO SAVE US AND GIVE US ANOTHER CHANCE.....CHRIST JESUS!!!  |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 09/12/08 03:09 PM
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GOD'S WORD DOES NOT CHANGE!!!!!
GOD CREATED A DAY TO BE 24 HOURS ..AND THAT HAS NOT CHANGED!! NOW.... IN ETERNITY, A 1000 YEARS IS AS ONE DAY....IN ETERNITY...YES.... BUT NOT ON EARTH!!! ON EARTH , WE LIVE IN TIME....NOT ETERNITY ...... SO THEREFORE , A DAY IN EARTH TIME IS ... AND ALWAYS WILL BE....24 HOURS! AND ONCE AGAIN, GOD'S WORD DOES NOT CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!
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