Well I have very little understanding of the Bible so I’m not seeking to start arguments spider. Just throwing these ideas out there. No one has even introduced any of this information thus far. Also, the term "virgin" is quite interesting. There is some evidence that pre Christianity the term was often used to describe high priestesses and roughly translated to "one of herself" So, in fact the term had nothing to do with whether or not a woman had in fact been intimate with a male. I probably don’t need to explain that these priestesses were having a LOT of sex as it was considered a religious sacrament. What it might have been referring to is a woman who is self contained and in control of her own sexuality.

That doesn't make sense, there is more than one language.

In Hebrew, there are two words for virgin. One means "young woman" and "virgin" and the other just means "virgin". The Jews didn't have priestesses and they didn't view pre-marital sex as a value (they did have prostitutes who were not respected or revered).

Chastity has always been a virtue in Jewish culture since at least Moses, if not before. So where you get this "before Christianity" stuff, I don't know.

Out of curiosity, what language are you talking about and what culture?

"What it might have been referring to is a woman who is self contained and in control of her own sexuality."

A way of being that today is still considered amoung many to be "unclean".

but doesn't it boils down to the logic of the Bible ..if God is the creator of everything then he created evil ..if he didn't create evil then therefore God is not the creator of everything and the Bible is wrong



the potential for evil would not exist if the knowledge to use this potential evil didn't already exist ... if one has the knowledge then they already have the potential to do anything ..so it comes down to...who is the creator of knowledge ..or do knowledge supercedes any creator..because how can a creator create unless the knowledge to create existed before the creator or the creation ..

wouldn't this means that evil and knowledge existed before God ...this concept might make it in The Third Testament ..wow I can't wait to hear arguments on this one ..that knowledge existed before God ...isn't that logical? ..because how could it be logical that God existed before knowledge

If people believe God is the first thing to exist then he must have created evil for he created everything!

If this is not true then how did evil come to existence if God created everything.

So the very idea of a female praying mantis to bite of the male praying mantis is God's invention!

but why in this manner is another question I have??

So, nothing pre-dated the Hebrews? What about Christianity? Nothing before that? Hmmm. What do you think was going on exactly prior? Of course there is more than one language. I never implied there wasn't.

In the Tarot, Artemis is corresponded with both the Path 'Art' in her huntress nature, and 'High Priestess' in her solitary role as Virgin-Mother. In both cases she is associated with the Moon or Lunar Consciousness. She is Queen of the Night. In Rome she was Diana, in Egypt Isis, for the Jews Shekinah, in India Shakti, Prakriti and Maya, in Scandinavia Disa.
Artemis as Virgin-Mother expresses the archetype in its most exalted form, the Anima Mundi, or soul of the world. Paradoxically, she is Great Mother and simultaneously Immaculate Virgin, containing the entire cyclic process of nature and its relationship to time. She transcends time, living constantly in a co-temporaneous eternal Now.

The book in which I found the actual definition of "virgin" or how it was used pre-dating the Hebrews was from a work entitled, "The Great Cosmic Mother: Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth." Like I said spider I’m not attempting to argue with any of the assertions you have made. However, shouldn't some of this be taken into account? It’s far too widespread throughout the world to be mere coincidence.

Surely you are not discounting ALL religious belief prior to the advent of Christianity?

Otherwise men were talking about their wives and how they felt about them at the time. It then was written in scriptures

it's called "Prophet syndrome" an acute condition in which the person begin to identify and then takes on the characteristic and mannerisms of Jesus results in the speaking of parables

"Abracadbra" has it and clearly "Creative soul" and I have seen "DavidBean" evolve into it and "Artgurl" denotes slight parabolic phrases in her writings and now "smiles" is showing symtoms

but in the poem why do I have heartburn ... how rude

what can I say I have this symptom!

sorry was trying to find a word that ryhmes with research!

Just to announce in public (funches) doesn't have heartbeans. If anybody it will be me who needs the certs immediately!

I wrote it for fun no harm intended!

You are the one who made the claim that "There is some evidence that pre Christianity the term was often used to describe high priestesses and roughly translated to "one of herself"" The problem you ignore is that the word never meant that in Hebrew, which predates Christianity by thousands of years. Christianity sprang from Judaism, so whatever religion you are talking about (Which according to what you say, it's those bogus claims of goddess worship), it wouldn't have been an influence on Christianity. Goddess worship is not supported by the archeological record. They find these statues of fat women and some people claim they are goddess figures, while most archeologists believe they were early porn.

What you are talking about is the cobbling together of many religions to claim some ancient grand religion, which is demonstrably false. This has been attempted with Christianity and aptly refuted by Christian apologists. I think that your source is flawed by the fact that it is unscholarly and clearly has an agenda.

You are being rude so I will bow out. You seem to only want to listen to your own rhetoric and are oblivious to not only my comments, but certain others as well. Sorry if I offended you with my "agenda". Get real. And we are to believe you are completely without bias here?

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catal_Huyuk#Religion

The excavation is know as Catal Huyuk and it is one of many.

Yes thats right, the Neolithic. I think that predates the Hebrews....

You aren't getting this: VIRGIN DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING BUT VIRGIN IN HEBREW. Your argument is that until Christianity (2000 years younger than Judaism) virgin meant high priestess. I have refuted that, sorry if that's 'rude".

I didn't say you had an agenda, I said your source did. I didn't say you had an agenda, I said your source did. That's called a strawman fallacy, when you make up or distort a statement and pretend that it is the actual statement made by your opponent.

Just because some other culture that lived in some area at some time might have used the word "virgin" to mean a high priestess, that doesn't mean anyone else did. Don't you get that? It doesn't matter how old the religion is. Each word from each language must be viewed separately, even when we translate them the same. I can't say that "Jealous" in Hebrew means "protective of what belongs to God" and insist that it means that in every language.

No spider, I don't think she was implying that virgin meant anything different in early Christianity, just that the term itself was used in other cultures in other ways. The idea that was put forward is that maybe the base definition of what a virgin is may have changed in the past 10,000 years.

The definitions of language do shift over time. Does anyone call a cigarette a "fag" anymore? No, that word has a completely different meaning now. When was the last time you heard someone referring to there day as "gay." Most people don't think of that term to mean happy anymore, at least not at first.

Now I'm not saying that "virgin" meant something to the Jews or Christians other than what it means now, but the point made was valid, and in no way a derogatory mark about Christianity or Judism.

Before Christianity and before Judaism there were the pagans and sun worshipers who worshiped both the feminine principle and the goddess (female organs represented by the dome) and the masculine principle and the god. (Male organs represented by the oblique.) --(The Washington monument is an oblique)

The priestess represents the "virgin goddess" or the "mother." When Christianity came onto the scene the "virgin goddess" was represented by Mary, mother of god.

JB

I didn't say it was.

But the remark is still completely false, maybe you should go back and read what was posted.



FALSE



By whom? So after the foundation of Christianity, all of the world's languages were changed to make "virgin" mean someone who hasn't had sex? Certainly Judaism didn't think this way. What religion are we talking about here? This statement is just plain confusing.

You seem to be assuming that I'm offended, I'm not.

I'm annoyed by false statements and faulty logic, that's about it. Believe it or not, I comment on many subjects other than Christianity.

No, that perversion of Christianity happened later around 400 AD, when the Catholic Church was trying to pull in the followers of the mother goddesses. The Bible is clear that Joseph had sex with Mary after she gave birth to Jesus, scripture believing Christians have accepted this fact since the earliest days of Christianity.

i got a head ache

It does not matter. Mary, mother of god represents the symbol of the virgin goddess. She is practically worshiped as a goddess by the Catholic Church. It does not matter if she had sex with Joseph after Jesus or not. That is what she represents. Maybe not to you, a new age Christian.

That's a new one. Sorry JB, but I'm talking about what the Bible says. I don't make this stuff up, do you want me to quote the verse?

Matthew 1:25


It's not a "new age Christian" belief, it's what the Bible says. Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born.

JB, that is absolutely correct and I agree with you. Mary is probably about as close as you can come to the actual "last stand" of the much more ancient Goddess/Earth based religion. In many Catholic churches she is held in the highest esteem and at moments over shadows her male counterparts. It’s clearly recognizable that the image of the Goddess was not going to go down lightly so the Catholics kind of made their peace with her. It is not just limited to Mary either....ever been inside of a very old Catholic church? The pagan influence is astounding.