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| Topic: NeoCon | |
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Neocons include: Wolfowitz Richard Perle Norm Podhoretz Charles Krauthammer Doug Feith Michael Ledeen Eliot Abrams Eliot Cohen Scooter Libby Bill Kristol Bernard Lewis Samuel Huntington David Addington and others who infiltrated the Bush presidential campaign and subsequent administration. Their primary goal was and is to swing US foreign policy to support Israel, especially the Likkudist agenda for Israel. They were wildly successful, taking advantage of the fear and panic that followed Sept 11. So, yes, the neocons are essentially and unquestioningly pro-Israel (or at least they feel they are; many people familiar with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict view the neocons as actually endangering the security of Israel -- but that is another issue), but beyond that, and this is where the controversy really heats up, they subordinate US interests to those of the Likkudist branch of Israeli politics. Socially and economically, the neocons are not particularly conservative; several of them are old-time liberals. But they have strayed from these roots and are now idnetified primarily by their militarism and allegiance to (Likkudist) Israel. The neocons developed and sold to the Bush administration some radical interpretations of international law, as was pointed out in earlier posts to this thread, most notably the doctine of "pre-emptive self-defense" -- laid out by Abe Sofaer -- and interpreted to mean that a (powerful enough) country could attack another if it merely asserted that it felt threatened. This doctrine has no standing in international law, and in legal circles is viewed as an expedient that 'allowed' the Bush administration to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. Oceans There you go! Do you ever get tired of pointing out the obvious over and over? |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Thu 07/03/08 08:27 PM
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I hate typing!!
 Where was I? Oh yeah! The Jews at the time began terrorist activities. They attacked British military Posts, stole weapons and ammo and began laying the ground work for a Jewish State. They still owned less than 10% of the land, but that didnt matter to them. They had a divine right to it all. It said so, right there in the bible! |
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Are you still there sailor?
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Thu 07/03/08 08:35 PM
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Good I'll quit typing, but I was just getting to the Deir Yassin massacre by Menachem Begin and the Israeli Defense Force in April 1948 before you say the Arabs attacked Israel!!
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Thu 07/03/08 08:41 PM
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This person, Starsailor2851, who ever he is, has probably been educated by fellow Zionists. But anyone who wants to take the time to think about it and do any amount of unbiased historical research can find the truth about all of it.
There is a lot of disinformation and lies everywhere, but the truth will always be revealed eventually. The media is not always a reliable source for truth. In fact, all major media today has a spin on it, and is controlled by people with agendas. You will have to read several different sides to the story and you will have to look for the agenda's on both sides. Everyone seems to have one. But the truth is there somewhere. I just find the idea of all this bloodshed for and about Israel for so many years to be very suspicious. There is something rotten going on here. I believe there is a criminal element at work in the Zionist political agenda, and anyone who tries to expose it or appose it gets called "bigot" or even a "racist" or anti-semitic which is ridiculous. I appose tyranny. I appose war mongers. I appose criminals and murderers. I appose corrupt government where ever it is. I do not support Zionism. I believe that it is corrupt and ruthless. I am not proud that our country seems to support Israel, or that many prominent Zionist hold dual citizenships, from Israel and United States. JB |
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Here's the story, but its not the only atrocity comitted by the Israeli's!
Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover. In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage. http://www.deiryassin.org/ |
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The great leader of the Israeli state, Menachem Begin, was a terrorist and a murderer of innocent women and children!
Fact!! |
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I don't have time to lay out the history that surrounds the creation of Israel, and will only respond to a couple of the more inaccurate statements that have been made here. After that, I'll be happy to refer anyone who wants to understand the conflict better to sources that will discuss all this in more detail.
1. The UN never owned or had sovereignty over Palestine, and so could not and never had the legal right to 'partition' Palestine. It is true that there was a UN General Assembly resolution that proposed partitioning Palestine, but the Palestinians turned it down. Nor did the UNGA resolution have any binding effect on UN member states. All security and peace/war matters are reserved to the UN Security Council by the UN Charter. The UNSC merely took the position, entirely compatible with international law, that conquest of a territory did not convey sovereignty over that land to the occupier. The partition resolution could not create any rights for third parties that they didn't have under international law. The Zionist claim to Palestine has no basis in international law. 2. Until such time as a peace treaty is agreed to by the Israelis and Palestinians with each other, voluntarily, the Israeli claim to any of Palestine is up in the air. 3. While the Israeli armed forces -- the Palmach, Haganah, the the terrorist groups Irgun and Stern Gang -- attacked Palestinian villages and leaders before the Israeli Declaration of independence, thus preceding the entry of Arab armed units into Palestine to save the Palestinians, none of this is particularly relevant to the rights of the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians certainly had a right to try to defend their lands against the Israelis, and certainly could ask for and receive the help of sympathetic Arab countries. 4. That the Palestinians were unable to withstand the Israeli forces and were defeated, does not mean that they lost any international legal rights. They, like any other people, have the right to self-defense, and the right to regain the lands that were occupied by Israel in 1948 and in 1967. 5. Similarly, Syria has the right to reclaim the Golan Hieghts that Israel seized in 1967, and Lebanon the Shaaba area also seized by Israel. Looking ahead: 6. On a personal note, I think some considerable sympathy should go to the European Jews who were, along with Slavs, gypsies, the criminally insane and homosexuals, brutally pursued and exterminated by the Nazis. Many European and American Jews saw the creation of a Jewish State as something that might provide the Jews with long-term protection from further onslaughts of anti-Semitism. 7. But the creation of Israel came at the expense of an innocent people, the Palestinians. And that is morally -- and legally -- unacceptable. Someday Israel will have to face up to this fact and recognize how much suffering was inflicted on the Palestinians by the creation of Israel. 8. Those who today blindly support Israel and refuse to recognize the horror that its establishment imposed on the Palestinians are not doing Israel any favors: those who wish to help Israel can do so by helping Israel come honestly to grips with its past. 9. If Jews deserved the sympathy of the world for what happened to them in WWII, the Palestinians today deserve equal sympathy and a fair response by the world to what has been done to them. I hope these notes bring some more clarity to the discussion. Oceans |
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Ariel Sharon was no better!
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I don't have time to lay out the history that surrounds the creation of Israel, and will only respond to a couple of the more inaccurate statements that have been made here. After that, I'll be happy to refer anyone who wants to understand the conflict better to sources that will discuss all this in more detail. 1. The UN never owned or had sovereignty over Palestine, and so could not and never had the legal right to 'partition' Palestine. It is true that there was a UN General Assembly resolution that proposed partitioning Palestine, but the Palestinians turned it down. Nor did the UNGA resolution have any binding effect on UN member states. All security and peace/war matters are reserved to the UN Security Council by the UN Charter. The UNSC merely took the position, entirely compatible with international law, that conquest of a territory did not convey sovereignty over that land to the occupier. The partition resolution could not create any rights for third parties that they didn't have under international law. The Zionist claim to Palestine has no basis in international law. 2. Until such time as a peace treaty is agreed to by the Israelis and Palestinians with each other, voluntarily, the Israeli claim to any of Palestine is up in the air. 3. While the Israeli armed forces -- the Palmach, Haganah, the the terrorist groups Irgun and Stern Gang -- attacked Palestinian villages and leaders before the Israeli Declaration of independence, thus preceding the entry of Arab armed units into Palestine to save the Palestinians, none of this is particularly relevant to the rights of the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians certainly had a right to try to defend their lands against the Israelis, and certainly could ask for and receive the help of sympathetic Arab countries. 4. That the Palestinians were unable to withstand the Israeli forces and were defeated, does not mean that they lost any international legal rights. They, like any other people, have the right to self-defense, and the right to regain the lands that were occupied by Israel in 1948 and in 1967. 5. Similarly, Syria has the right to reclaim the Golan Hieghts that Israel seized in 1967, and Lebanon the Shaaba area also seized by Israel. Looking ahead: 6. On a personal note, I think some considerable sympathy should go to the European Jews who were, along with Slavs, gypsies, the criminally insane and homosexuals, brutally pursued and exterminated by the Nazis. Many European and American Jews saw the creation of a Jewish State as something that might provide the Jews with long-term protection from further onslaughts of anti-Semitism. 7. But the creation of Israel came at the expense of an innocent people, the Palestinians. And that is morally -- and legally -- unacceptable. Someday Israel will have to face up to this fact and recognize how much suffering was inflicted on the Palestinians by the creation of Israel. 8. Those who today blindly support Israel and refuse to recognize the horror that its establishment imposed on the Palestinians are not doing Israel any favors: those who wish to help Israel can do so by helping Israel come honestly to grips with its past. 9. If Jews deserved the sympathy of the world for what happened to them in WWII, the Palestinians today deserve equal sympathy and a fair response by the world to what has been done to them. I hope these notes bring some more clarity to the discussion. Oceans 
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Thank you Oceans.
 JB |
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Hi, Fanta!
Yes, I do get tired of repeating all this over and over, indeed I do.... But that is the lot of an historian in the Internet age, alas.  Oceans 
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I thought I was doing pretty good!!
 
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You are welcome, JB!
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How to convince someone who has learned the story from the Israeli history books?
That is the question. I guess its really a waste of time to attempt. |
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You are, bro!
Menachem Begin has a very interesting section in his memoirs, THE REVOLT, about the Deir Yassin massacre. He states that 'if' his group did it, it was a good thing, as it panicked the Palestinians into fleeing their homes, thus making the Israeli military task of seizing as much of Palestine as possible easier. Do you have a source on the Stern Gang being involved in Deir Yassin? Israel has had two Prime Ministers who were terrorists: Menachem Begin is one, and Shamir is the other. Ariel Sharon has been charged with war crimes, but probably escapes the narrow definition of 'terrorist' as he carried out his bloody acts as a representative and leader of the Israeli government. To their credit, many Israelis denounced Sharon, and to this day the Israeli population remains deeply divided over Israel's role in Lebanon, as well as over Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Oceans |
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'Night, you all. This conflict will keep to the morning.
Heh, the glass is half-full: those of us who have been studying and following the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for decades at least focused on a conflict that hasn't gone away, so we haven't had to re-invent ourselves as experts on some new conflict after another.  Think of what all those Kremlinologists had to do when the USSR imploded in 1991! Oceans |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Thu 07/03/08 09:09 PM
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You are, bro! Menachem Begin has a very interesting section in his memoirs, THE REVOLT, about the Deir Yassin massacre. He states that 'if' his group did it, it was a good thing, as it panicked the Palestinians into fleeing their homes, thus making the Israeli military task of seizing as much of Palestine as possible easier. Do you have a source on the Stern Gang being involved in Deir Yassin? Israel has had two Prime Ministers who were terrorists: Menachem Begin is one, and Shamir is the other. Ariel Sharon has been charged with war crimes, but probably escapes the narrow definition of 'terrorist' as he carried out his bloody acts as a representative and leader of the Israeli government. To their credit, many Israelis denounced Sharon, and to this day the Israeli population remains deeply divided over Israel's role in Lebanon, as well as over Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Oceans Just the one I pulled that off. Ive read others though. Do you have a better one? Which Israeli military group was trained by the allies in Europe and saw action in WWII? |
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Are you a Zionist then Starsailor2851? If you mean do I support a state of Israel, then yes. That is what Zionism is. The non-twisted, non-bigotted, non-propagandized definition. And who educated you in all this propaganda that you are now spreading? Thank you JB . Please educate the American public . I am proud of you intelligent lady . The truth ought to be said anywhere and everywhere . Darn, I ran out of baloney. Lindyy 
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Thu 07/03/08 09:12 PM
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Deir Yassin wasn't an isolated incident, and it all happened before the Arabs attacked Israel!
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