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| Topic: NeoCon | |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Fri 07/04/08 10:38 AM
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Well, yes, in a sense you are right. Left to their own devices, Jews would never have been able to create Israel in Palestine. The Zionist vision was a big one. Its creator, an Austrian journalist named Theodore Herzl, proposed that the Jewish State be set up in a land where there no existing inhabitants. The idea was that given this condition no one would be harmed by the creation of the Jewish State. But others within the Zionist movement realized that well-educated and successful Jews from Europe would have little interest in joining a new state created in the middle of nowhere (areas of Uganda and Patagonia were under consideration), but that with the appeal of the historical religious/mythic connection of Jews to Palestine it might work there. You are right that Christians, as individuals helped the Zionists achieve this. Arthur Balfour is one example, in Britain, and Harry Truman is another, in the US. But here is where I draw a distinction: Balfour and Truman were, while Christian, not motivated by religious Christian zealotry. Their motivations were secular, and their religious affiliation was incidental to their policies. Balfour wanted to secure the financial assistance of wealthy European Jews in Britain's struggle against Germany in WWI, and Truman wanted to secure Jewish financial support in his election campaign for the US presidency. As Truman put it, 'I don't have any Arabs constituents.' To my knowledge, not many if any Christian organizations -- that is, organizations set up for the purpose of advancing Christian goals -- supported the creation of Israel. Indeed, US Christian missionary organizations were strongly opposed to it, as were Americans who were individually strongly Christian. See, for example, the King-Crane Commission. The embrace of modern Israeli right-wing Likkud policies is a fairly recent phenomenon, and resulted from deliberate efforts by Jewish Orthodox rabbis to convince Christian evangelical leaders that they should support Israel. I am guessing that armed only with Christian Scripture, these evangelical leaders, not particularly knowledgeable about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- easily fell for it. It is a fascinating bit of history, and shows how powerful ideas can be, for good or for evil. Oceans  I settle for the it cant directly be proven fact, but judging the influence upon Western Govs by Right Wing Christianity it is suspect. Esp. since the British citizens were overwhelmingly against it! |
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Quickstepper, a follow-up:
Muslims, like any other people, want peace; they just don't want to have their lands occupied by a foreign colonial group. So, yes, they want peace, but, no, they don't want peace at any price. Sort of like we Americans! Further: non-Muslims are not an 'affront' to Muslims. I have friends of many religions, and who are atheists, and my Muslim friends do not see me as an affront at all. From a doctrinal perspective, Islam honors the People of the Book -- 'Ahl al-Kitab -- that is, Christians and Jews. You may surprised to know that Jesus is a highly honored prophet of Islam, as are other Christian and all the Jewish prophets. Muslims believe that good Christians and Jews and all on the same path as good Muslims. Oceans |
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Edited by
Fanta46
on
Fri 07/04/08 10:40 AM
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If we treated the Arab countries with half the friendliness and respect the US has given Israel, we would not have been attacked on Sept 11, would not be "at war" with the Muslim or Arab worlds, would have long-term contracts for oil exports at reasonable prices, would not have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, would not be isolated in the international community, etc. I am not so sure about this assessment. I think that our support for Israel benefited from the attack on 9-11 because the attack was blamed on Arabs. I don't believe Arabs were in any way responsible for 9-11. Terrorist acts are always being done by unknown factions and then blamed on someone else to stir up war. There are documented reports on this method of operation. You want to look at who benefited most by 9-11. Israel did. Bush did. Neocons did. Zionism did. The evidence points to Zionist factions responsible for 9-11. The so-called melted beams that were evidence were taken away from the scene and the investigation into 9-11 was hampered. ******************************** On September 11, five Israeli army veterans were arrested by the FBI after several witnesses saw them "dancing", "high-fiving", and "celebrating" as they took pictures of the World Trade Center disaster from across the river in New Jersey. Steven Gordon was the lawyer who volunteered to represent the five Israelis. He was asked by a Hebrew newspaper why the five men were being detained by the FBI. Here’s what Gordon told Yediot America: "On the day of the disaster, three of the five boys went up on the roof of the building where the company office is located," said Gordon. "I'm not sure if they saw the twin towers collapse, but, in any event, they photographed the ruins right afterwards. One of the neighbors who saw them called the police and claimed they were posing, dancing and laughing, against the background of the burning towers…. "Anyhow, the three left the roof, took an Urban truck, and drove to a parking lot, located about a five-minute drive from the offices. They parked, stood on the roof of the truck to get a better view of the destroyed towers and took photographs. A woman who was in the building above the lot testified that she saw them smiling and exchanging high-fives. She and another neighbor called the police and reported on Middle-Eastern looking people dancing on the truck. They copied and reported the license plates. 2 When the photos were developed, they revealed that the dancing Israelis were smiling in the foreground of the New York massacre. 3 According to ABC’s 20/20 attempted whitewash of the incident, in addition to their outrageous and highly suspicious behavior, the five also had in their possession the following items; box-cutters, European passports, and $4700 cash hidden in a sock. 4 Why were these Israeli agents so happy about the horrible massacre that was unfolding right before their very eyes? What evil spirit could possess people who are supposed to be America's "allies", and who receive billions of dollars in financial and military aid from US taxpayers each year , to publicly rejoice as innocent people (including many American jews) were burning to death and jumping out of 110 story buildings? Could it be that these happy Israeli army veterans were in some way linked to this monstrous attack? That’s what officials close to the investigation initially told The Bergen Record newspaper of New Jersey. 5 As incredible, as ridiculous, and as "paranoid" as that belief may appear to you at this point, the fact is that certain elements within the Israeli government, and Zionist movement in general, have a long history of attacking the USA and framing Arabs in order to gain support from the US. Before we begin to piece together what really transpired on 9-11, it is absolutely critical that we first review some historical precedents regarding Israel's and International Zionism's treacherous history of manipulating America (and other nations) for their own selfish purposes. Without a basic understanding of this history, it would be impossible to understand the truth as it is today. So put aside your preconceived notions, your psychological defense mechanisms, and your prejudices, and step into my time machine for a journey down the memory hole. ************************************** http://www.sott.net/signs/Stranger_Than_Fiction.htm This is a conspiracy theory! Besides that putting the cause of the Arabs hating Western Gov's on any single incident, and esp solely upon any recent incident would definitely be putting the cart before the horse. They had their land stolen and have been mistreated by the Israelis and our unwavering support of Israel despite their criminal deeds, for so long that would be ludicrous! IMO, it would be an interesting experiment and probably go a long way towards better relations to treat the Arabs as equals. Not just to Israeli's but also to ourselves! For too long we have treated them as second class people and assumed a superiority to their intelligence and customs!! |
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As I said, there is nothing irrational about anger at Israel: many share in it. Israel's behavior is what has brought it criticism and anger.
And yes, you are right: Sept 11 would probably not have happened had it not been for the blind US support for Israel. Leaving aside JB's possible scenario that it was Israel that engineered the Sept 11 attacks, and assuming that it was Osama bin Laden (though we have little-to-no evidence that this is so), Bin Laden's agenda is as follows: 1. Stop US's unquestionning support for Israel 2. Stop the US's support for repressive regimes in the Middle East (e.g. Egypt and Saudi Arabia) 3. Stop stationing of US troops in the holy region of Saudi Arabia What does it say about the anger of those who have been harmed by Israel at the US for the US's support for Israel? Just that they are normal human beings. If we support those who have harmed them, should we really be surprised that they become angry with us? yes, the US and the Arab world have historically had good relations, and in some ways still do. president Bush has caused a major set-back for US-Arab relations, but he is not the first to have done so, and I believe that under a better US president we can again the respect of the peoples of the world, including Arabs, Muslims, and some day, Palestinians. Oceans |
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Wow. This turned into a very colorful neo-conversation.
As you eat your hot dogs today, consider that while we’re independent of the government then ruled by George III, how much independence do we have today when we are spied on by the government of George II? |
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Just think what an African American President willing to talk to the Arabs as equals could do towards establishing peace in the ME!
Vote Obama!!! 
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JB, thanks for posting about the Iron Mountain report. I had to get a good chuckle about the author, who pretends to be merely introducing the 'report' than having to scramble to assert his copyright over it!  Oceans It makes me wonder about whether he is the sole author or not, or if he just wanted to assert copyright over it. If he was smart he would have created a corporation or small publishing company of his own and made that company the copyright owner. It was still an interesting report. I wonder about its agenda or purpose. JB |
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As I said, there is nothing irrational about anger at Israel: many share in it. Israel's behavior is what has brought it criticism and anger. And yes, you are right: Sept 11 would probably not have happened had it not been for the blind US support for Israel. Leaving aside JB's possible scenario that it was Israel that engineered the Sept 11 attacks, and assuming that it was Osama bin Laden (though we have little-to-no evidence that this is so), Bin Laden's agenda is as follows: 1. Stop US's unquestionning support for Israel 2. Stop the US's support for repressive regimes in the Middle East (e.g. Egypt and Saudi Arabia) 3. Stop stationing of US troops in the holy region of Saudi Arabia What does it say about the anger of those who have been harmed by Israel at the US for the US's support for Israel? Just that they are normal human beings. If we support those who have harmed them, should we really be surprised that they become angry with us? yes, the US and the Arab world have historically had good relations, and in some ways still do. president Bush has caused a major set-back for US-Arab relations, but he is not the first to have done so, and I believe that under a better US president we can again the respect of the peoples of the world, including Arabs, Muslims, and some day, Palestinians. Oceans Your reasons for a possible Arab attack were: 1. Stop US's unquestionning support for Israel Which of course had the opposite effect, giving Bush the power and support to chase terrorists into Iraq, of which Israel was so very happy about that. The attack on 9-11 blamed on Arabs was a great benefit for Israel and increased support, and resulted in U.S. invasion of Iraq. 2. Stop the US's support for repressive regimes in the Middle East (e.g. Egypt and Saudi Arabia) (I don't know about this proposed agenda) 3. Stop stationing of US troops in the holy region of Saudi Arabia Which of course had the opposite effect. ************************************************** Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9-11. That is an orchestrated lie. In fact, the Bush family were good friends with Osama's family and they were in the thick of doing business with each other. They were probably getting way too friendly for the Zionist movement's comfort. Blaming 9-11 on Osama Bin Laden was key to gaining support for Israel and getting troops into the middle east. Osama's family members had to be flown out of the United States right after 9-11 when all planes were restricted to get them to safety. They had been here with Bush's family. The Bush and Bin Laden families have had relations for over 20 years. ****************************************************** http://tvnewslies.org/html/bin_laden_ties.html Osama says HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ATTACKS OF 9/11! - Here is the transcript of what you were not allowed to hear from Osama binLaden's own mouth: - Not many people know that, after September 11, 2001, Osama bin Laden issued a statement on tape that he had nothing to do with the attacks on America and that such actions were against the teachings of Islam. Americans were prevented from accessing this information because we were told that Osama could possibly have an embedded "secret code" in the tape that would alert other terrorists cells to "activate" and target other American cities. - Osama bin Laden: "I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." ********************************************* |
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I think it was intended as a spoof of the type of thinking that the RAND corporation does. RAND is one of many consulting organizations that will essentially say anything that their clients want them to.
Under current copyright law (Berne Convention), all authors automatically have copyright over their materials, even without registering them with the Library of Congress, or affixing the "copyright" logo, name and year to their materials. Of course, if there is a disputed claim, the author has to be able to prove that he/she wrote it and when. The Iron Mountain controversy arose, I gather, because government reports are automatically in the public domain -- not copyrighted (though they can be classified, an entirely different matter). So, apparently, individuals were reproducing the thing freely, not realizing that the author had written it personally, and that it was not in fact a government public domain report. Hoist on his own petard, was the author! But he will have his claim upheld as he has proof he submitted it to his publisher, and that no such report was ever produced by the government, that is, that there is no competing author coming forward. I doubt that those who reproduced it in the good-faith belief that it was a genuine government report will have to pay any penalties for copyright infringement. The courts, if it ever gets that far, will probably hold that the author brought the problem down on his own head through his own actions. This reminds of Voltaire's LETTRES PERSANES! Of course, that was in the days before copyright law. Oceans Oceans |
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OK< JB, you have piqued my curiosity, and I'll follow-up on this. For reasons other than the ones you cite here, there is reason to believe that your proposition has substance.
Thanks for sticking with it... Oceans |
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Just think what an African American President willing to talk to the Arabs as equals could do towards establishing peace in the ME! Vote Obama!!! That's a nice thought. 
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Wow. This turned into a very colorful neo-conversation. As you eat your hot dogs today, consider that while we’re independent of the government then ruled by George III, how much independence do we have today when we are spied on by the government of George II?  Oceans |
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Happy hot dogs, everyone.
Post Tenebras Lux. After the Darkness comes the Light. Oceans
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You may surprised to know that Jesus is a highly honored prophet of Islam, Oceans Your intentions may be good, but it is a blow to Christians. Jesus Christ is not a prophet, He is our Lord and Saviour. Lindyy |
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Ok guys, unlocked Please debate the topic not the poster Thanks, Mark |
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Hi, Quickstepper. Several comments are needed here. Muslims do not have an irrational hatred of Jews (nor of Americans, for that matter). They do, as do non-Muslims, look askance at what Israel has done to the Palestinians, and of those who look askance, some are willing to try to help the Palestinians, as are some non-Muslims. For example, many Christians and some Jews are actively working to force Israel to back down from its occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinians. Indeed, many Israelis themselves oppose the Likkudist program of the Israeli government these last many years. Israeli actions in Palestine and the Middle East are a SECULAR issue; it is not a matter of religion. There are Muslim Palestinians, Christian Palestinians, and Jewish Palestinians: they have all been victimized by Israel. It is not a matter of their religion. Oceans Look ...I can't understand why they all have not blended in. All across the mid east...there are so many divisions...Who cares what country Palestinians or Arabs or Sudanese etc live? They should all have the same right to make their way in the world they live, without stone age hatreds & the backward teachings their religion demands. It has gotten out of hand. I wish I could believe what you are saying but I think the mid east use the palestinian situation as an excuse for their continued hatred of the jews. They won't rest until they kill many many more. I see the injustices coming from the terrorists toward their own people or we would not have to be there. I find the palestinian "injustice" as you put it, funny since that never comes up anymore. BTW...I don't agree with any land for peace deal when muslims prove over & over that they can't be trusted to keep the peace. They attacked Israel back in the 70's which is why they lost their territories to begin with. They attacked NYC which is why we fight a war on TERROR, in case people forgot that one. It's still out there too. I am angry at my country for not doing something sooner to get us off oil dependancy before this. I am sick to death of that hateful mindset they live with there & can't wait to tell them all where they can stick their oil. |
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You may surprised to know that Jesus is a highly honored prophet of Islam, Oceans Your intentions may be good, but it is a blow to Christians. Jesus Christ is not a prophet, He is our Lord and Saviour. Lindyy You are correct lindyy & there is no comprimise on that one. |
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Quickstepper, a follow-up: Muslims, like any other people, want peace; they just don't want to have their lands occupied by a foreign colonial group. So, yes, they want peace, but, no, they don't want peace at any price. Sort of like we Americans! Further: non-Muslims are not an 'affront' to Muslims. I have friends of many religions, and who are atheists, and my Muslim friends do not see me as an affront at all. From a doctrinal perspective, Islam honors the People of the Book -- 'Ahl al-Kitab -- that is, Christians and Jews. You may surprised to know that Jesus is a highly honored prophet of Islam, as are other Christian and all the Jewish prophets. Muslims believe that good Christians and Jews and all on the same path as good Muslims. Oceans I think you are sadly disillusioned to think that you can negotiate with terrorists & any nations who harbor them. |
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Happy hot dogs, everyone. Post Tenebras Lux. After the Darkness comes the Light. Oceans I think you have that backwards...don't miss it. OK?
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Many US Christian evangelicals have been persuaded that supporting Israel is in some way connected to being a good Christian, but, in my opinion, blind support for Israel violates everyone of Jesus's moral teachings. Were He alive today, He would be the first to demand that the Palestinians' rights be recognized, and that Israel stop its oppressive ways. Oceans ****************************************** ****************************************** As a devout Christian, I can say with certainty that you are totally wrong about the contents of the above post. Yes, Christians support Israel and they always will. ******************************************* ******************************************* Thank you again Oceans. The belief of some Christians that they are required to support Israel or that they should support Israel because of some imagined connection to Christianity is a fallacy. JB As a devout Christian, I can say with certainty that you are totally wrong about the contents of the above post. Yes, Christians support Israel and they always will. Lindyy  |
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