Damn JB......you are a hardnose to say the least.....

you stated my sentence left it's own logic, but GAVE NO REASON FOR SUCH......need i say more.....i would like to know HOW, as i WISH to know MORE than i already do......obviously you are not used to such logic, as it is not present within you.......seems to me we were just acting out the "cause and effect" you say you believe in.......the ONLY thing that make the truth rise to the top as the truth, if it is......

if you tell me that you i am wrong about something, then simple logic would say PERHAPS you could enlighten me as to HOW, lol......

perhaps you have mistaken me for somebody else......

as far as everything else you have spoken, i agree EMPHATICALLY, and have stated such on numerous occasions in response to your MNAY great ideas, as i KNOW many of them ARE TRUE......but perhaps there is MORE to be SEEN......

I have been having some very long and exhausting conversations about the nature of consciousness, reality, logic, quantum physics, the non-existence of nothing, the non-existence of time and space, and now you bring up the existence of UNCONSCIOUSNESS which is a contradiction to itself according to my new understanding of consciousness as the source or spirit that flows through and gives life to all things.

Therefore it has been my personal conclusion that consciousness exists in all things and that it flows and is expressed in various degrees, but it can never NOT EXIST.

Therefore the term unconsciousness is an oxymoron. "Un" meaning "not" conscious.

Something and consciousness both exist.

Nothing and unconsciousness cannot exist.

JB

There are many professional psychologists who would completely disagree...

As would I.

Most of your everyday behaviour is done unconsciously...

awh, but it was only spoken that BOTH exist together, so BOTH are correct it would appear.......it cannot be or the universe is not here, as one star we can see one night, and the next night we cannot.....such is the conscious and the sub-conscious......

indeed i agree though, man has not begun to even begin to tap into the power of the sub-c mind, and the place one can go once once the conscious mind is subdued by complete understanding of, that the sub-c mind can come to the fore front and begin to first "see" all things, then come to next know HOW to create all things......

problem is to live in both realms completley is a feat that no human has ever had NEED of, as the beginning of a new creation or cycle of moirtal life has never been in front of us here today, and all things that are involved have been sealed up in times past, as how could mankind know the end of the book before understanding all that was NEEDED first, by experiencing first the beginning and middle of the book of all life, lol.....

AGREE COMPLETELY......i never spoke the word UN ever, but rather sub-conscious.......sub refers to the degrees or layers you speak of.....INDEED

Sorry folks...

You are living in a delusion if you believe that there is no distinction necessary between the unconscious and tha conscious.

As a matter of fact, it is and has been scientifically documented and studied for a very long time.

The conscious recognition of the ego is the beginning of the assimiliation between unconscious and conscious states of mind.

The prefix sub presupposes a lower stature, nature or value, and the prefix super also correlates this notion accordingly...

They are both the unconscious...

That's right you did say subconscious in the first post. It was the next post where you used unconscious. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was answering your next question:



JB

That term (unconscious) is used in relation to the known use of the term conscious the way you define it and probably the way most people define it so I am sorry to confuse the issue with my own understanding of what "consciousness" is.

My statement should have included my premise and definition of consciousness as I use and understand it in order to follow my logic in the matter and in order for a person to understand what I mean.

I think David understands what I meant.

I follow your logic, or at least I believe that I understand what it is you are attempting to describe...

In your descriptions it would benefit you tremendously to also include that which is known to exist.

The reason I mentioned the prefixes was to assimilate your concept into what is commonly held as true...

There is no Archimedian Point for psychology of the mind though...

I would reword that to say:

...to include common understandings, definitions or beliefs about what exists.

JB

I WAS QUOTING YOUR WORD THE "UNCONSCIOUS" JB.......SMILES

I CAN AGREE COMPLETLEY THAT A DISTINCTION IS NEEDED, BUT THAT LINE OF DISTINCTION WILL BE WHITTLED AWAY EACH DAY AND SECOND AS THE MINDS OF MEN ARE NOW OPENED.......EVEN NOW ALREADY THINGS UTTERED BY MANY ARE FROM THE TRUTH PLACE, THAT ALL EARS ARE NOT OPEN TO "HEAR" YET, LOL........


EVERYTHING ELSE YOU SPEAK OF HERE IS WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD FROM TIMES PAST FROM OTHERS THAT LOOKED THRU FEAR AT ALL THEY SEEN AND HEARD, AND IS OF NO USE IN KNOWING HOW THE SUB-CONSCIOUS MIND OF ALL MEN WILL OPEN AND MANY THINGS WILL CHANGE EVEN IN AN INSTANT OF TIME COMPARED TO ALL TIMES PAST.......TIME HAS EVOLVED EVEN TO A NEW BEGINNING, SO ALL THAT IS RELEVANT NOW IS ONLY INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT IS HEARD WITHOUT FEAR BEING ENTERED INTO THE EQUASION........

JB...



Ahhh... but you are not I... I said what I meant to say, and it meant what it did, purposively so...

What is known to exist...

For you to question the validity of my statement concerning the existence(distinction) of the unconscious elements of human pyschology is to play self-destructive word games, which will inevitably lead to a rabbit chase, consequently missing the most important points of the conversation at hand as a result of the incessant need to be validated by one's own belief system, regardless of it's contradictory nature to things which are already known.

For if your reasoning for it were to be held as true...

Then why talk of a thing such as energy... or matter... or quantum mechanics??????

All of those terms were coined to contain a set of corresponding ideas... none of which stand alone.

Consciousness is no different.

I also said what I meant to say.

For thousands of years men have sought the state of complete spiritual freedom from the endless cycle of birth and death, a state of full awareness, memory and ability as a spirit independent of the flesh.
By eradicating the reactive mind in clearing we not only achieve an erasure of the seeming evil in man, we also overcome the barriers which made it so difficult to attain total spiritual independence and serenity. Thus, once a person achieves Clear he is now able to become refamiliarized with his native capabilities. As man is basically good, a being who is Clear becomes willing to trust himself with greater and greater abilities.

In Scientology, a state of complete spiritual freedom is attainable. It has been achieved not on a temporary basis but on a stable plane of full awareness and ability, unqualified by accident or deterioration. And it is not limited to a few.

It is called, in Scientology, “Operating Thetan.” The definition of the state of Operating Thetan is “knowing and willing cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space and time.”

The amount of spiritual gain available to a person is something rarely conceived. In an aberrated state where one’s energy is primarily absorbed attempting to straighten out personal problems, a person is unlikely to lift his gaze to the glories that could be his as a fully rehabilitated and able being, not just as Homo sapiens.

So in Scientology, how does one attain such spiritual freedom?

In a group called "Avatars" they call it "living deliberately." It involves knowing yourself and why you react to things, and using your will to direct your life consciously.

Esther and Jerry Hicks call it "The Power of Intention" and "The Law of Attraction." It involves using your will to direct your thoughts to create your reality.

I think it involves the realization that you are not confined to your physical body and that you are consciousness and you can place your attention anywhere you want. Soul travel, bi-location etc. The power of the mind. The power of the conscious will.

JB

there be only one thing that can achieve the "state of clarity" as defined, and that is ERASING the filter of good and bad from ones own thoughts then first, as this be where all good and bad actions, or PROOF of unclarity originate........NOT ONE THAT EVER MURDERED DID NOT HEAR THEIR OWN THOUGHTS AND PERCIEVE THEM AS BAD AND GOOD, and then RESISTED the BAD ones, and TRYED to follow the GOOD ones........this only make for repressing them, and ANYTHING repressed then GROW WITHIN THE MIND, AND ALSO THEN THE BODY, and this be how one come to do any agressive act as murder.......they birthed it into into a reality, not even understanding how.............sick indeed, but then how is this bad, as if someone knew HOW to help the sick, the PROOF be no more sick, lol........ ALL IS PERFECT STARTING IN ONES OWN MIND FIRST, or how can this "religion" of self-betterment not go away....then ALL FEELINGS ARE GOOD, AND THERE ARE NONE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE, but all make for a perfect balance when followed........it is only thinking a "FEELING" is bad that decieve any into doing bad LATER DOWN THE ROAD.......

SELF FIXING STEM FROM THE ROOT "I AM BAD", AND THEREFORE IS EVEN AGAINST ALL SCRIPTURES........AGAINST A NATURE, AND AGAINST EVEN ONESELF........how can one try to self fix unless the mind has first whispered a truth that made one guilty, and it was NOT ACCPETED, or rejected..........and then one run off to make themself better, lol........IT CAN NEVER CREATE ETERNAL PEACE.......it does create a temporary and why it is SO decieving, even temporary as a marshmellow to a starving man.........all peace stop FLOWING only by OBSTRUCTION OF THE MIND......halt any thought as BAD, stop PEACE.......if you heard it, there is infinite wisom in it somehow, and it can NEVER make one feel as they are not SUPPOSED to feel, unless one think all emotions are to be ONLY GOOD ONES, LOL.........to do something that one does not want to, only come from PICKING WHICH THOUGHTS SERVE ONESELF THE MOST.......jmo

jeanie,

you might want to look at taoist views of conciousness. I think there similiar if not the same as what you believe. I agree with you, though i do believe some part of us transcends. To where, i dont know.

It reminds me of a quote, 'the sword of life cannot create without destroying and the sword of death cannot destroy without creating'.

It's basic physics that space cannot be destroyed or lost, only changed. Jung talked alot about the sub concious. I forget where, but i remember him saying that being unconcious was not a lack of conciousness, it was a change in conciousness. the person was simply asleep. then if i remember correctly he went on to explain that sleep is altered conciousness, much like if you where on drugs, blind or you begain to think slower. That it is an effect of the brain, which determines our perception, which alters how we everything including our conciousness.

love it.........'the sword of life cannot create without destroying and the sword of death cannot destroy without creating'

seems why it was once said the power of "life and death" be on the tongue, and if mankind seek to preserve good or life GREATER than bad or death, our pinnicles of good and bad, the tongue cannot create true life for itself, or anyone else..........

a parodox indeed.......to speak all good make for a death sword, and to speak all bad make for a life sword.......but if BOTH the life and death be on the tongue and spoken, a cloned or false life be formed, which has not the power of TRUE life, which is to FEEL ALL AND ALIVE.........

seems certainally why since having been taught to worship GOOD MOST, make MOST for a NEED to escape from an off balance reality, a feeling of NO LIFE, and why drugs then are so common......

who would see that to cure the NEED for drugs be not to remove drugs, but to rather encourage all SPEECH, and this "lead" to no NEED.......but indeed, the drug afflicted are seen as "defective", or as a lessor, and then words are not heard by others, lol........indeed removing this "block" of the mind that lead to quiet suffering, allow the mind to RE-OPEN, and for all things to be allowed to pass thru......to not do leave one empty, and with a NEED for an anesthesia......

it seems simply QUITE IMPOSSIBLE to find a true cure for anything if it is approached as wrong, incorrect, defective, defiecent, lacking, less than, or even more hiding any solution to be found, to see others as evil in essence, perhaps even terrorist, lol..........just why i SEE the wisdom in your quote or words.......peace