Let me expound on this...I know this is off topic, please forgive me, but I want this point to be clear.

The Jews look forward to the coming of the Messiah. The Jews make an extra seat at the Passover dinner, incase the Messiah arrives. But Rabbinical literature and the Bible agree that the Messiah will be mistreated and murdered by the very people who are waiting for his coming. To the Jewish people, they know these prophecies, but have no explaination for WHY they will be fullfilled. So Jesus' treatment and execution explains perfectly the prophecies which are still troubling to the Jewish community.

Just a reminder - staying -rigidly- 'on topic' is NOT an official forum rule. The rule reads as follows:

"7) Hijacking a topic by making posts which are off-topic and unrelated to the original post is considered rude. Please try to keep your posts pertinent to the topic at hand. We will allow some leeway in this area, as there is some amount of "topic drift" that occurs in a normal conversation that we will permit. However, members who we feel are continually and intentionally hijacking topics, especially after having been warned by a moderator, may have their posting privileges suspended. We ask all users to do their best to stay on-topic."

The following is also good to remember:

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will be deleted. The concept behind these forums is to encourage anyone
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Most people are writing in response to someone else - by the time a convo is decidedly off topic, several people have contributed to the drift. If you -really- want to stay on topic, simply don't respond to decidedly off topic comments.

Its also sometimes advantageous to split a topic, create a new one which quotes relevant parts of a previous topic to continue a tangential conversation.

Spider,
Please excuse my ignorance, but how does one "experiment" with pantheism? That sounds like you are doing something like witchcraft.

JB

what pantheism isn't an hallucinogen???

hmmm?????

always get's me tripping when abra and you talk about it

In all seriousness, I have been reading the Book "Holographic Universe" about LSD therapy for mental problems and how well it works in opening the consciousness to the fabric of the holographic reality to reveal the inner connectedness of all things.

This type of awareness can be attained with certain types of meditation but it can be instantly achieved with carefully controlled drugs of this sort.

hahahaha been there - done that - i have seen and expierienced all of what's written of and more many yrs. ago - at one point i truly believed i had all the infinite answers, but lost them when i came back to what is considered normal - - it is definitely a different plane but not the be all and end all. just a trip.

The same way anyone experiments with any religious belief. I was reading an author on Kabbalah who believed that we are all part of god. He explained Pantheism in a way that I have seen others. That god wanted to understand itself, so God divided itself into many parts (people, animals, plants, etc) so that it could observe all aspects of existance. According to this author, when we die, we would rejoin with god and our consciousness would become part of a collective. That idea terrified me. I liked his writings, they sounded good up to that point, so I was seeing how his beliefs worked in my life. They didn't. His idea of the heavenly afterlife was just as horrible as any depiction of hell could be. I am not a conformist, so the idea of becoming part of a collective revolts me to my core.

I never practiced witchcraft. I still find that I have a bias against Witchcraft from my Hermetic tradition / Kabbalah days. Witchcraft is looked down upon by many Hermetics and Kabbalists (not to mention Thelemites), because it is a very new belief pretending to be ancient. Kabbalists claim that their beliefs are as ancient as the earth (they aren't), so to bolster their egos, they sometimes look down on newer religions. Witchcraft has never appealed to me in any way, it's too...dramatic (that word doesn't fit perfectly, but it's close).

As far as Jewish prophecies of the Messiah, the reason I personally don't believe them is that these prophecies were well written and spoken of before the New Testament was even written.

So there is the big question as to whether someone wrote this story later to claim or have it appear as if the prophecy had been fulfilled. There are those who claim that the entire new testament is a forgery including all of the so-called witnesses.
So we have no way of knowing if this prophecy legend was simply taken from the old testament and rewritten. Personally I don't believe this prophecy was fulfilled.

JB

Spider,

I DON'T BLAME YOU FOR THAT!

Sounds a lot like being assimilated by the Borg on Star Treck, Next Generation.

Resistance if futile.

I don't want to be assimilated!

That is not the way I view the idea of pantheism at all. I will retain my individuality! Although I may join up with my other selves from my past lives..

I believe that each of us retain our individuality, we just become like a close nit family who shares our stories and experiences.

But for me, there is no way to "practice" pantheism. There is no ritual or dogma or churches to attend. It is just an understanding of the connection of all things. That is all it is to me.

JB

that was going to be my point with spider also, if any that remains are true then we will know - but according to inter christian beliefs all that was predicted by christ has already taken place - it is only the dispensatinalist and others who believe in the rapture and and end time events that have not already been fufilled.

If you're going to embark on a conversation about the meaning of 'instinct', I think you should first make a distinction between instinct and intuition.

This is my own personal views, not mean to be a dictionary definition (in fact, I haven't even bother to looks the words up in a dictionary).

However, I do know that a thesaurus will often offer instinct and intuition as being valid words to mean the same thing.

But trying to avoid the semantic problems of words, allow me to make two differnt following conceptual definitions just for the sake of offering two differnt concepts.

Instinct - "reflex action"

Intuition - "gut feeling"

For example, when a doctor taps your knee with a mallet you leg springs forword. That's a reflex action. A venus fly trap could be said to be working on pure reflex action.

However, even hobby robots with senors could be said to have 'reflex actions', and therefore those things could be said to be 'instincts'

In that sense, robots could be said to have built-in instincts.

However, intuition is a whole differnet thing. You might say that you instinctually 'feel' that to keep walking would be better than stopping if you are in a place you don't 'feel' good about.

But that's not atually instinct. That's intuition (i.e. gut feeling).

So to have a meaningful discussion about instincts you should make clear at the onset the difference between "Reflex actions" and "Gut feelings".

Just my thoughts.


(sorry for all the typos I'm in a rush)

Here's one that was fullfilled in 1945.

Matthew 24:32-33


Israel is often called the "fig tree" (Just as the USA could be called "The Bald Eagle" and people would understand you spoke of the USA), so Jesus was really prophecying that Israel would be reborn. Now remember the other event that happened with a fig tree, when Jesus cursed the fig tree because he was unhappy with it for not bearing fruit. That was foreshadowing of the destruction of Israel.

Instincts and intuition and reflex actions:

I think they are all three different.

Reflex actions: Unconscious programed reactions.

Example: My cat brought home part of a frog half eaten. Only the head was left. I flipped it over to see what it was and it basically croaked at me and scared the crap out of me. LOL. Of course it was noiseless and it was just a reflex action.

Instincts: Natural more conscious programed responses.

Example: A snake or alligator is hatched, fully capable of fending for itself with all the knowledge and information it needs to survive.

Bees emerge fully adult with all the knowledge they need to become a member of the hive. Instinct or collective mind?

Intuition: Basically: "Psychic"

Today's psychics draw information in the form of pictures and feelings from the holographic matrix or even seemingly from spirits. They sometimes call themselves "intuitive" because of the stereotype ideas associated with the term "psychic." I have a friend who is very psychic and I have seen her pull information out of somewhere, names, locations descriptions etc.

JB

Where does it say that the fig tree represents Israel?


JB

that is what i understood at one time also spider - but upon further invesitigation into it when i was still christian the belief is only held by SOME christians as being a fullfillment of prophecy. hal lidsey pointed this out inthe 70's in "late great planet earth" - thaT AND MUCH MORE - BUT THOSE OF THE DALLAS THEOLOGICAL CEMETaRY'S ARE ONLY THOSE AND THOSE LIKE THEM THAT BELIEVE THIS - YOU NEED TO READ - OOPS - sorry hit cap key - other christian beliefs that differ widely on the view as to what israel's role is.according to the dutch reformed all those things pertaining ro israel both old and new testament were fullfilled in the destruction of isriel in ad 70 by the romans - if you line up their beliefs and others like them "who are pracricing christians" they make a case by case point for all of jeses' and revelations prophecy's already being fullfilled. again this is not from outside the church - but from within.

Hosea 9:10

I would argue that only two distinctions are required.




My argument would be that the difference between the above two is really nothing more than a level of complexity.



I personally think life forms like snakes, alligators, and bees areaddy have intuition in addition to their basic reflexes.

Obviously, these are just my thoughts, and not meant to be a scientific definition.

In other words, I see no reason to make a third distinction.

I would say that things are either driven soley by reflex. (i.e. stimulus causes response)

Or they are driven by intuition (i.e. gut feelings)

Of course, there is a third level, that would be the analytical thought of brains. Logos. But that moves beyond the ideas of 'instinct and intuition'

I think that 3 levels of distinctions are all that's really needed. 2 lower-levels of distinction, reflex and intuition, and then logical analytical thought.

Of course intuition would include emotional drives as well as the psychic. I suppose you could make a distinction between those two kinds of 'gut feelings'