I do.

that's the rub.

apparently, all the contentions over dear Vanessa's post shows the contrary.

from you, included.


Can you respect that, too?

I have never once told her or you what to believe. All I ask is that you admit that what others hold to be true is just as valid. You both have every right to worship as you see fit; it's when you start implying that others will have to answer to YOUR God that you fail to respect us.

When I said you would answer to my God, I was just trying to show you how that felt. I did not actually mean that. I apologize if you thought I did. I just want you to understant how your words are affecting others. What I am hearing from you is" we are right; you are wrong".

That is disrespectful. I don't believe in your bible; I fully support your right to believe in it. In fact, I would defend it. Please let it work both ways.

Jesus is Jesus and YHWH is YHWH, your faith may hinge on the duality of god but not mine..dont point your finger at me in self-rightious arrogance and presume that my salvation can only be found in your beliefs.

You are as jewish as a Christmas ham.

The Old Testament speaks of Jesus as God.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

BAM! God and the Messiah are one.

you believe, apparently, that the Holy Bible says something other than it says, and I have pointed out to you that it does not say what you suppose it does.

If you choose to believe thaT IT SAYS OTHERWISE, THEN THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. oops caplock key...

I f what you believe about the Holy Bible is disengenuous, then perhaps what you believe is based on erroneous understanding of it's contents.

To that, I am speaking; not to your personal convictions.

but if your personal convictions include an errant comprehension of scripture, then my point is valid in pointing out that error.

What you do with that is your choice, but it is not my position to persuade yyou of anything. I am simply pointing out that which is, in fact.

Factually representing the Holy Bible's message, that is.

Of course, you are entitled to believe what you will.

I would only remind you that I am being helpful in caring for your understanding of the Holy Bible and it's message.

You are welcome to draw your own conclusions regarding your beilefs and faith and views in general.

In that, I am not your adversary.

Quite honestly, I see no reason for there to be the appearance of any strife. It is not evident in my posts here.

What is present is the filters that read into my posts something other than espoused.

Let's try to be more careful in reading what is given and not assume that which is not.

Is that possible?

Jesus for you was the Messiah, and you accept him as your god...mazeltov...I dont, end of story. Who are you to insult me or speak as if you have the right to criticize my faith and how I go about it?

I don't believe a single credible historian would agree with you. Even those who reject the belief that Jesus is God (and I'm sure most of them do) would have to agree that Jesus had more effect on history than any other man who has ever lived. Where you get your silly notions is beyond me. A single man took a small relgion that was practiced in one small nation by a people who were subjegated and enslaved and it is now the dominate religion in the world? That had nothing to do with those who came before, it has entirely to do with who he was and the ideas that he taught.

Do you admit that a person who choses not to believe in your bible has just as valid a stance as you do? That their beliefs are just as valid as yours? if so, yes.

Please understand that what is holy scripture to you is mere words on a page to me. It means nothing to me. I have no reason to read or understand it any more than you have any reason to read or understand any religion's holy books.

Belief is a choice. Respect my choice. I respect yours.

well then.

apart from the point of my first post which admonishes Abra for not getting it that Jesus is the God of Abraham and that he is in fact the "one solitary" person depicted, Biblically, then you and I are in perfect agreement.

It does work both ways.

Let's try to remain focused on how this conversation has been born, shall we?


to you and others, Chrisitianity does SEEM to be us versus them.

But that is quite honestly viewed as pseudo- christianity to Chrsitians.

It is also called churchianity by Christians.

That distinction is of more heartache to Christians than to you.

Would that the counterfeits were silenced!!!!!

One day, they shall be.

In the meantime, we all must endure their strife and contention.

Most of the problem wqith Christianity is from the contentious and errant within the label, not without.

It is a very cumbersome annoyance for many, assuredly.

I share your disgust with that.

Nevertheless, here we are having a debate over things quite far from that which was intended.

You aren't Jewish. No Jew would EVER type "God" or "god" in reference to the God of Abraham. Whatever your beliefs are, you are welcome to them, but you aren't "Jewish" by faith. Heck, if you want to call yourself Jewish, that's no skin off my nose. I'll call myself a Hindu, it won't make it true.

This has nothing at all to do with what I posted.

First off, you’re a religious man, when you go around the world you probably hang out with religious people who share your faith. What’s so surprising about that?

Secondly, that’s not the point anyway. The point is that it’s a outright lie to imply that Jesus’ fame and affect on humanity is due to “One Solitary Life”.

I don’t why people feel a need to lie for Jesus. That’s my only point. Why lie????

Can’t they speak of him with truth instead????

Jesus’ fame was n due to his solitary life, but to the whole dogma that preceded him!

That’s the truth.

And if you really want to get into the dirty details his fame is also do to many people forces others to believe in him at the point of a sword. Ever hear of the crusades???

The American Indians were run off their land by a mostly “Christian” culture. And then proselytized into becoming “Christians”.

Africans were enslaved by a mostly “Christian” culture and had to pick cotton in their Master’s fields whilst their Master when to church to Worship Jesus. Then those slaves were proselytized to become Christians too!!!

Jesus fame is not do to “One Solitary Life”. His fame is due to ruthless bloodshed and coercion by “Many Lives” of people who were claiming to be his “Followers”.

So it doesn’t matter if you’ve been around the world a million times, you apparently still don’t see the truth. Jesus popularity was not due to him but to the people who ruthlessly forced an archaic religion down the throats of others at sword-point or gunpoint, or other some such hostile threats (like telling them they’ll go to hell if they don’t believe it!)

It’s a total lie to say that “One Solitary Life” had a greater affect on mankind than any others. And even if credit is given for that “One Solitary Life” for everything that happened in his name, the vast majority of what was done in his name was not good.

You could argue that things were not what he preached but that just drives home my point!

What goes along with the name of Jesus, is a whole lot more than just what he taught! His name is used to represent and support a whole dogma that came before him. That’s where his name ultimately gets its power. Without that dogma behind him, Jesus is nothing.

And his popularity today was not gained by people following what he taught, but rather it was gained by people doing things against what he taught to proselytize a whole religion in His name!. Jesus is probably the most used and abused person who ever lived.

You can’t separate Jesus from the rest of the dogma. It would be meaningless to attempt to do so, yet this is precisely what so many Jesus Freaks are attempting to do when they say things like “One Solitary Life” had such a great impact on humanity. That’s nothing short of a lie. It was a whole dogma that had such a huge impact on humanity, not just one character within that dogma.

At least if you’re going to believe in a religion understand it for what it is. Why pretend it’s something it’s not?

Why lie to proselytize Jesus?

That’s my only question.

I am not pointing a finger at you.

I am reminding you of what Christianity is.

That JHWH and Jesus are one in the same.

Believe what you will. I am not in disafgreement with you over your beliefs.

You just don't understand that Christianity holds that Jesus and JHWH are one and the same.

Let's remain focused here.

This is not a battle.

Nor is it a debate.

I agree with you that self righteous arrogance and presumptions about one's salvation are argumentative at the least.

Nevertheless, all shall stand before Jesus.

That is an inescapable fact of life.

One solitary man took an obscure religion of Romes slaves in the middle East and turned it into the most powerful religion in the world. Only a liar would deny that happened.

Hikerchick,

I do believe we understand each other after all.

I agree completely with this, your last remark.

Thank you.

I am off to work now.

Have a great day all!!!

That’s precisely what I do get Wouldee!

And that’s precisely all I’m saying.

It’s a lie to claim that Jesus “One Solitary Life” had such a huge impact on humanity, when in truth it is the whole dogma of a religion that about the God of Abraham and contains stores of many lives, not the least of which is Satan (a supposed fallen angel) whom without Jesus would be meaningless. Jesus is nothing without Satan. Satan’s very existence is what give Jesus meaning in this dogma!.

That’s precisely what I said way back on page one.

So it appears that we’re actually in agreement and you just don’t understand what I’m saying.

If Jesus is the God of Abraham then it was a whole lot more than “One Solitary Life” that caused this religion to become as aggressive in it’s proselytizing nature as it is today.

That’s all I’m saying.

I’m not making any claims at all with respect to whether or not Jesus was indeed the God of Abraham. I’ll grant that he was! I don’t believe in the God of Abraham anyway. It’s all just regional folklore to me.

Whether it’s true or false has nothing at all to do with the point I’m making. It would still be a lie to claim that the popularity of that religion was due on “One Solitary Life” when in fact it’s due to a whole dogma and lots of ruthless and violently aggressive proselytizing over the ages.

That's all I'm saying.

That's not true. Jesus didn't even turn it into a religion. It became a religion after he died. And many would argue (myself included) that there are valid reasons to believe that there was a lot of demagoguery added into the dogma after Jesus died.

Even the Jews themselves didn’t believe it was true!

Thank you, Wouldee.

{{{{{ <<<<< Spider >>>>> }}}}}




Thank you for who you are !!!.....

for your amazing intelligence,

your ageless wisdom,

for your grace,

your integrity

&

for your unwaivering ~

awe - inspiring faith