Abra:

All in good fun...

JB:

I stated this...



If one claims that the above statement is not necessarily true. Then one is depending on delusion for substance. How could anyone attempt to deny this statement?

I have yet to read your expressed premise, and honestly I have been taking the conversation lightheartedly as a result of deliberate and conscious respect for your beliefs.

The following statement says it all... from you.



That is what I have been saying all along, incorporate the unknown...

We admit that we cannot understand everything, as does anyone with any common sense. One should not just leave out the things which contradict one's claim, as if they are insignificant. By doing so, one will only further define that which they think they know, based upon what does make sense to them. Ignoring the logical contradictions will only blur actual reality's place in thought, and inspire delusion to fill in the gaps.

There is something that ties everything together if there is no separate...

The thread that runs through the way.

It is unknown... and will always be... unknown.

I just want you to not paint yourself into a corner, blinded by sheer will.

Well, I don’t know how true any particular religious or philosophical beliefs might be. But I’ve always believed in the following cliché (at least to a degree), but certainly not mystically,…

“Where there’s a Will, there’s a Way”.

I’ve always believed that I can accomplish anything I set out to do (provided I have enough WILL to actually accomplish it)

In fact, I’ve actually invented my own cliché that’s a take off from the above popular cliché and my cliché goes as follows,…

“If you can’t find a Way, you obviously don’t have the Will”

This is basically what JB is saying,… You need to have intent, and belief that you can succeed, or that that universe will provide or whatever.

Now with you and me, we have problems with this, and here comes an example,…

Someone strips you naked and places you inside a very heavy thick-walled metal safe. It’s a small box and you need to be curled up in just to fit inside it. They close the think metal door on you and lock it tight. You know that the locks are large deadbolts that you could never hope to break. Moreover you’re not even in a good position to apply any pressure to the door.

The take the save and toss it overboard in a very deep part of the ocean. And there you are. Sinking to the bottom of the ocean naked with no tools of any kind in thick heavy metal box that is locked shut and has no handles of any kind on the inside.

“Where there’s a Will there’s a Way”,… sounds like a pretty empty cliché in this situation does it not?

Well I think for most people it would indeed be a hopeless situation and they’d just continue to sink to the bottom the ocean and die in that box. I imagine that’s precisely what would happen to me.

But who’s to say that for a person who has enough faith that as they are sinking they suddenly feel the door fall open and they swim out of the box and pop to the surface of the ocean just in time to gasp some much needed air.

Who’s to say that for some people it wouldn’t unfold precisely that way?

Maybe the person who closed the safe didn’t close it right and it accidentally fell back open?

Maybe it was divine intervention?

Maybe it was due to the thoughts of the person inside the safe. Mind over matter?

You and I will never know, because you and I would just keep on sinking.

We don’t have enough faith to do anything else.

All I know is that there are situations that I would not want to be placed in, because I don’t have enough faith to get out of them. But I do believe that almost anything I really put my mind to doing that I believe is possible I could accomplish.

For example, I’m not a millionaire because I never truly had the Will to become one. It wasn’t that I tried and failed.

At that can be said about almost all aspects of my life. I’m basically responsible for where I’m at in life. If I don’t have a mate (my biggest compliant) it may well be do to the fact that I genuinely didn’t have enough will to get out there and find one.

And it is true, I really didn’t make it the focus of my life to glean the planet for a mate.

By my own words,… “If you can’t find a Way, you obviously don’t have the Will”

Clearly I’m single because I genuinely don’t have the Will to become involved in a relationship.

All JB is saying is that if I really had the intent (the will) I could manifest that reality.

I believe she’s right concerning things like that.

Now if she thinks I could get out of the sinking safe, I’m not going to be so incline to agree with her.

But I might agree with her, that I could have prevented that whole situation by actions taken earlier that would have led to avoiding getting in that predicament in the first place. That’s certainly a possibility.

What led up to me being placed in the safe in the first place???? Who knows the answer to that question.

That may be the answer to your scenario concerning rapes, and whatnot. There may have been choices prior to the actual event that led up to it. Had those choices been made differently (based on Living Deliberately) maybe that person would have never been in a situation where they could become a victim.

Just a thought. Not intended as an ‘argument to support the law of attraction’.

Creative,

I wouldn't worry about me painting myself into a corner, and I am not blinded by shear will. My eyes are wide open and I don't see any evidence at all that supports your assertion that the law is flawed.

The reason I can't accept your examples (accidents, murders etc.) is because your only reasoning seems to be that you can't see the causes at work and you feel bad about placing any of the cause on the victims.

I can't see the causes at work either but I understand the law and I do have faith in the law. Until I see more evidence that the law is flawed I will remain with the current model.

In order to replace the current model I would have to find evidence to construct an entire new model and you can't provide that because you have no clue.

If you can provide a solution and a better model of how reality is manifested and how things happen I am all ears.

But the lack of information is not proof of anything, and that is all you have is the lack of information.

At the very least I have a law of cause and effect and that is a scientific law. In addition to that I have quantum physics and other considerations that fit within my entire picture of reality that you are not aware of.

So telling me that you don't believe in the Law of Attraction because you have seen some terrible things happen to nice people that can't be explained is not enough to convince me to rearrange my model of reality in even the slightest way.

I am not married to it, but I need a lot more than that to scrap it.

JB

Whatever works for ya!

I have to agree with JB on this one. Just because you don’t understand how your own thoughts could have led up to situation that you feel are beyond your control doesn’t mean that reality can’t be this way.

Just like I mentioned in my gruesome sinking-safe scenario. You’re looking at the end result and saying, “No one can deny that you can’t just think your way out of that sinking safe!”

What JB is saying is that you thought your way into that predicament whether you were aware of it or not.

I think she has a valid point that escapes your logical condemnation.

You’re just looking at specific events (like a rape, or whatever). JB is looking at a broader picture saying there was a lot going on that led up to that event!

I don’t think your claim that her claim is illogical holds water.

That doesn’t mean that she’s right. But you certainly haven’t tossed a logical wrench in her soup either.

Getting out of impossible ~bad~ situations.

My model of reality includes reincarnation, so you have to bare this in mind. It begins with this premise.

How do some people get out of what they feel are impossible situations?

One way is to die.

Some people die on purpose because they just don't like the life situation they are in.

Suicide is one of the ways to get out of a disagreeable situation. Illness is another. Yes some people are the cause of their own illness.

In traumatic situations, the loss of memory is one way the person gets out of the situation. The brain can even shut down the senses.

In bad 'accidents' the memory of the accident is wiped from their brain even when there is no actual head injury.

In traumatic abuse situations, a person's psyche splits into two or multiple personalities that are not aware of each other, such as in the case of Sybil and other cases.

MK Ultra was a government mind control experiment that purposely used these techniques on people that installed triggers that would activate a different personality who could hold vast stores of information or do things they are triggered to do.

My model of reality says that the person you are is inside. It is not your beliefs or your brain or your body. It is your soul identity, your thinking center. This identity uses your body and your brain and is in control of it.

JB

That's funny Abra...

As if...

Let us look at the big picture... shall we?

We have a claim which admits to not being provable...

Who am I to argue that point?

JB:

A premise is not a question!

That almost sound like a cop-out to get out of having to explain the philosophy.

But I’m actually in complete agreement with you on this. My picture also includes the fact that we are all ultimately eternal spirits. And therefore death really is a valid solution in some situations. Because in the larger spiritual scope of things death isn’t the end of the spiritual life.

Clearly though, people do die who do not intend to die. I don’t think anyone can argue with that.

There are many cases of very ill mothers who would love nothing more than to hang around and watch their children grow and be there for them.

So there are clearly people who die who do not want to die.

And perhaps Michael’s wrench can be tossed into the gears of that one!

I don’t have a problem with this because I’m not an extremist with it.

I think JB does go overboard to almost proclaim that the law of attraction can override anything.

I won’t go that far. I believe that we may very well be able to control what is manifest in our live (even to the point of curing our own illnesses like cancer, etc).

But at the same time I don’t think it’s a fool proof system. There must also be other laws that can override the law of attraction.

Just like the law of aerodynamics allows airplanes to seemingly defy the law of gravity. The existence of an airplane doesn’t logically disprove gravity.

And in this same way, I don’t think the existence of accidents or wrongful deaths negates the law of attraction. It simply implies that it’s not the only law in the process.

That’s more the way I look at it. It may exist as a law, but it’s neither absolute, nor the only law that drives our existence. Just like gravity, it’s one of many laws.

"Murphey’s Law and accidents"

When you are on purpose and acting with intention, the universe will often provide you with exactly what you need to get the job done.

This is the Law of Attraction working automatically on your behalf. You may not take note of this and you may not be aware of it.

You will find this at work when you hold a feeling of joy, contentment, intention and happiness. But if you are burdened with feelings of depression, dread, regret, anger, irritation, hate, etc. it may seem that the universe is working against you because Murphy’s law is in effect.

Murphy’s Law, of course was meant as a joke, but it represents the Law of Attraction when everything seems to go wrong and nothing seems to go right. People will say, “If its not one thing, then it’s another.”

An example of Murphy’s Law states that if you drop your wrench, it will fall close to the perfect center underneath the car where you can’t reach it. The ultimate example of Murphy’s law states that the worst things will happen at the worst possible time.

Murphy’s Law is the Law of Attraction when bad feelings and bad attitudes are powering thoughts. You might be trying to fix your car and everything goes wrong because your mind is grumbling and thinking about other things. Your focus is not on the target and you do not feel good or happy as you work.

You are angry that the car stopped running, you jack it up. You grumble and slam things around. You crawl under the car. The jack slips, and the car falls on you. You are seriously injured.

It is called an accident. There you have your accident. The man was not thinking or planning to have his car fall on him, but Murphy’s law was at work because he was not paying attention, he was not grateful, he was not feeling good, he was not enjoying his work, he was complaining. He was not focused on the goal because he was too busy being angry and careless.

JB

P.S. The best way to get the Law of Attraction to work for you is to do things that make you feel good. Good feelings power the law of Attraction for success in your endeavors.

Well I think JB already admitted that she doesn't have proof for it. She says that it's just the best picture she's heard of yet.

She's not trying to prove that she's right. You're trying to proof that her picture is illogical.

Your proof might have some validity if JB is going to claim that the law of attraction is the only law that governs our existence.

As I said in my last post, I have logical problems with that myself.

But then I don't take the law of attraction to be an absolute working alone in a vacuum. I see it as potentially just one aspect of our nature. I think there are other laws or forces at work in our lives as well.

One thing for sure, Living Deliberately is a more productive philosophy than not, so even without any law of attraction, that’s still a good philosophy, if it’s nothing more than a motivational speech.

Are there other laws at work?

Very possible, but they would be laws designed for different purposes. The Law of attraction is only one law and it is for a specific purpose and it is always in effect for that purpose.

I have my own name for the formula. I call the process of using the Law of attraction “The creative techniques.”

Can the law be interfered with?

I suspect that the law is seldom interfered with, but I suspect that it can be. It has probably been designed or manifested for this specific universe as a tool for neophyte creators in training. Just an idea, not an assertion.

JB

How much of our lives do you think we pre-plan in that karmic holding pattern?

I can understand you need to have a law attraction because what else could possibly lead us into the self-fulfilling prophecy that our pre-karmic planning has intended.

Of course if you believe in this, then you must believe that it's not always done right,hence, further reincarnation is required to get it right.

But this is in direct conflict with any pre-planning in the karmic holding pattern? Why? Because the reason for manifesting/creatind would not exist, if we had pre-planned the expereinces we needed in this life to advance ourselves in the karic scheme of things. RIGHT?

Other questions, what is your opinion about those who are born, so damaged that they never mature beyond the age of one, or two or five? Will they still "logically" create/manifest? Or do they exist at the will of others?

@ JB:

You calling me a neophyte?

Hiya Di...

How the hell are ya???

I have missed you!


Upon consideration of this notion I have very loosely brought up contradictions to be considered. They have not been thought out any further than the initial explanation.

One must arrive at a conclusion by themself in order to grasp it.

I have been tempted many times to spell it out slowly and clearly, but it is of no use... no logic supports it, therefore no logic can deny it either.

The story's supportive evidence changes as we go...

No, actually I think we all are neophytes.

Not a whole lot. We leave ourselves a lot of room for personal choice of the little self. (The incarnate personality.)
Our goals for each life is to experience and learn certain things. That part is guided by the higher self. The rest of the choices are left to the little self.



I don't quite understand your concept of pre-karmic planning.

I look at it this way: You go on a vacation.
You know vaguely where you want to go and what you want to do, but you don't plan every single thing out in advance, you leave yourself room to be spontaneous, but you do go to the main place you set out to go usually.




Yes, some say that you live around 1500 lives as human. Before that, you can live as other forms of existence.



When you go to school, the lessons and things to learn are sort of pre-planned, but room is left for creativity in the learning process usually.

One of the reasons for being here is specifically to learn to manifest and create. The different life experiences are for the purpose of learning about the possibilities and finding out what it is that we desire to create. We cannot create anything if we do not have any preferences and if we have no desire to create anything.



What would be the purpose of a soul incarnating and experiencing what it is like to be a rock or a tree? It is for the experience. It serves a purpose. You can't expect me to know what that purpose might be except that it is for the experience.

It is all for the experience of being and doing.

JB

I did not say it was. The premise I was referring to was that my model of reality includes the idea of reincarnation. That is a premise.

JB

I think is problematic in just about any philosophy except perhaps pure atheism where life is viewed as nothing more than a cosmic accident. In that case, it might make sense to ask why there aren’t more genetic mistakes than there are. They are actually quite rare relative to the population as a whole. Genetics and biology are amazingly efficient overall.

It’s kind of like when people claim that that vast majority of humankind are inherently evil. Crime statistics don’t support that claim in the least. Far less than 10% of the population are actually criminal, that means that over 90% of the population are good people. That’s also an amazingly overwhelming statistic that flies in the face of the idea that mankind is inherently evil.

Also, even from an atheistic point of view you’d think that if we were just random beings then it would be more like 50/50. Why is it so lopsided toward good people, and genetically healthy offspring? I guess one could make a evolutionary argument for the genetics, but I’m not so sure about an evolutionary argument holding for good-natured dispositions.

Anyway, the point I really wanted to make is that if life is some sort of a school or learning environment for potential god-like beings, then experiencing how to cope with severe deformities and handicaps might be a part of that.

We only see one lifetime, so we think that those few individuals who are handicapped have lost their chance at a good life. But if we think in terms of many reincarnations, then we may all take turns experiencing those extreme difficulties in life, and so that would just be a normal part of the course.

I’m not supporting any particular view here. Just rambling.

Nice to see you posting Di. You’ve been missed!

eating popcorn and watching the show

Here goes nothing...


Read this carefully, and at your own belief structure's risk...


The Law of Attraction necessitates that experience(s) in this life are self-created and/or manifested by our own belief, thoughts, and feelings as we exist in this little self during this lifetime.

It also claims that there is no judgemental aspects, and that the universe provides that which we focus on most without judgement. In addition to these claims, it also states that we have a higher-self which exists independantly of our little-selves, and it is claimed that this higher-self decides things like how we will die, and our general life circumstances at our birth, based upon what the higher-self determines to be of need for little-self to learn.

That notion inherently invokes two separate knowledge bases and the inherent need for the higher-self to acquire the ability to use judgement.

How and when does/did the higher-self acquire it's larger knowledge-base, and what frame of reference provides it's ability to determine what the little-self needs to learn?

This requires a judgement of necessity.


Add to all that a source - the universe - and an historical record of thought - the formless substance - and we have at least four separate factors which help to determine our circumstances surrounding our human lives.


Now, should we think about things that actually have and do happen, on a regular basis, it should fit within these aforementioned premises. If they are true, it will fit.

It is completely unreasonable to think that any intelligent form of life such as the higher-self would choose to be born defective or die a horrific death... Why?

Perhaps that needs to be addressed by the one making the claim.

Let us say that there is no explanation but that fact does not effectively dispute the claim, and I have a feeling that has already been said anyway...

Ok, then...

Every person who dies as a result of unfathomable torture has done so at their own higher-self's request?

For what purpose?

What was used then by the higher-self to judge the measure by which the little-self is to be born or by which it is to die?

Oh wait, I almost forgot... there was the claim of no judgement...

If there is no judgement, there is no inherent purpose possible.

It all falls apart all by itself if you ask me...

Think about it!