Well LexFontayne, I've never been one to pass-up a challange .

So your question is how could any kind of benevolent God allow horrible
things to happen?

Well, consider the alternative. What would it be like if everything was
wonderful all of the time, if Good ALWAYS triumphed over evil, etc.,
etc., etc...

You see it right? Life would be boring. Worse, we wouldn't know the
difference, because we would have no idea what good and bad were,
because we wouldn't have the opposites it takes to define them.

That is essentially the reason, as sentient beings, existence is defined
by opposites. Go ahead, show me something which doesn't have an
opposite. Even a unique object is defined by it's previous lack of
existence. Try to find something, please.

So, at our lowest, most depraved, most evil; this is the ultimate
opposite to the happiness we can achieve. All of that misery is there so
we have the capability of knowing "wonderful" when we have it. That way
we can appreciate the happy times, because we know what it's like when
it's bad.

Your friend with the broken arm, he was right.

You see, he was experiencing that "mysterious" design, he really
appreciated being alive because he was faced with the truth of his own
mortality.

Interesting that your counter-argument is a pasted copy of a brochure.
*sigh* Most people never bother to READ the studies these companies
mis-quote, so allow me to give you an insight into junk-science, and its
many uses in propoganda.

Marijuana addiction is a phenomenon experienced by more than 150,000
individuals each year who enter treatment for their proclaimed addiction
to marijuana. Marijuana addiction is characterized as compulsive, often
uncontrollable marijuana craving, seeking, and use, even when the
individual knows that marijuana use is not in his best interest. [Please
note they do not mention the TYPE of addiction, as conclusive scientific
studies have shown that PHYSICALLY marijuana is as addictive as
chocolate. That means, while pleasing to various senses, there is no
physical craving responses tied to marijuana use. Of course, there are
choc-a-holics out there, and you don't need to go further than your
local McDonalds to see the effects of EMOTIONAL addiction. This is
completely different from the PHYSICAL addiction of nicotine and
alcohol-both legal.]

Marijuana addiction could be defined as chronically making the firm
decision not to use marijuana followed shortly by a relapse due to
experiencing overwhelming compulsive urges to use marijuana despite the
firm decision not to. This contradiction is characteristic of an
addiction problem. [I laughed twice when I read this. The first time
when I read it, and again now. The key word in this paragraph is
"could". See, psychologist have a hard time defining words like
"addiction" in the first place. Additionally, you have to consider they
are defining an addiction that has the same exact symptoms of HABIT.]


Symptoms of Marijuana Addiction:

Marijuana tolerance:
Either need for markedly increased amounts of marijuana to achieve
intoxication, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the
same amount of marijuana. [So, in other words, you either need more or
less of it. Yeah, this is conclusive of what?]

Greater use of marijuana than intended:
Marijuana taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was
intended. [Yeah, I Dated a girl once longer than I intended too.]
Unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control marijuana use. [Yup, also
had a weight problem too.]

A great deal of time spent in using marijuana
Marijuana use causing a reduction in social, occupational or
recreational activities. [This is true, they did a study on this. What
was interesting about this study is that a SIGNIFICANT number of users
stopped for no apparent reason. I guess, there MIGHT be other factors
for social change besides marijuana-but not according to this
paragraph.]

Continued marijuana use despite knowing it will cause significant
problems. [Hmmm, again, I one time had a relationship that I KNEW was a
bad idea, but for some reason...]

Marijuana is both emotionally and mentally addictive [There ya go,
emotionally and mentally. Like cheeseburgers, good books, video games,
and relationships] . Once an individual
becomes addicted to marijuana it develops into part of who they believe
themselves to be [Yeah, not for the large number of people that stop
after college. By the way, this is ALSO in said study]. Avoiding their
friends who do not use, the addict will
gravitate to others that do [hmmm, you mean people will gravitate to
other that share similar interests? This is SHOCKING phenomena].
Marijuana is a topic that is always on their mind, whether it be
thinking about the next time they will be able to get high or where
their going to get their next sack [*sigh* This statement just isn't
verifiable at all. This is the kind of data that in scientific studies
require DATA to say, but is not necessary in a propogandamercial].

When someone is addicted to marijuana eventually their friends and the
people close to them only know how they act when their stoned because
they no longer do anything without first smoking. Their constant abuse
is due to the misconception that marijuana is what they need to solve
their problems.Sometimes addicts will take their stash with them
wherever they go, just in case an opportunity arises and they are able
to take a couple hits. They may even go through several dealers in order
to make sure they always have a constant supply of marijuana.
[It's true, when someone becomes a habitual user, this can be a typical
pattern of behavior. Of course, this is also part of HABIT, and does not
demonstrate a harmful pattern of behavior, other than flouting the law.
Which, no who drives has ever done ]

The cost of marijuana addiction to the individual who allows their
addiction to escalate may suffer health and social consequences, memory
and learning problems, problems at work or even result in losing a job
because of high absenteeism. Those who isolate themselves from friends
and family often put a heavy strain on relationships with loved ones.
[Umm, another little bit of logical/scientific truth. One interesting
correlation is that many types of people may be predisposed to certain
types of behavior, which may also include marijuana use. See, without a
physical addiction, drugs do not cause personality changes. Does ANYONE
realize how difficult it is to change a PERSONALITY? This is the very
thing that defines us, and while we may go through an emotional
roller-coaster in our lives, our personalities don't change. If a person
is lazy and irresponsible, they will exhibit these behavioral patterns.
With our without marijuana use.]

There is a vicious cycle to marijuana addiction in which these problems
are often used as a rational to smoke even more pot. Marijuana addiction
is a no-win situation that many unintentionally fall into (the drug that
is causing the problem becomes the solution to the problem it caused).
[Again, personal responsibility gets THROWN OUT THE WINDOW with these
irresponsible and inaccurate statements. You don't unintentionally smoke
marijuana and get addicted. It's not like developing a nail-biting
habit, and I have NEVER heard of someone smoking 1 joint and then doing
ANYTHING to score another dime-bag. People have coping mechanisms, and
using Pot to "calm down" is just as bad as reaching for a drink when you
had a bad day. However, the alcoholic fights PHYSICAL addiction, as
opposed to the THC habit that is the hallmark of a "pot-head".

Addiction to marijuana is severe due to its affect on the user's brain.
Scientists now know many facts about marijuana's effect on the body and
how delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the major active chemical in
Marijuana, acts in the human brain. When marijuana is smoked, THC
travels quickly through the body and into the brain where it unites with
specific receptors on nerve cells. Areas of the brain with the most
receptors affected by THC are parts of the brain that control pleasure,
thought, memory, sensory, concentration, time perception, and
coordination. It's these areas of the brain that are most likely to be
affected when an individual faces marijuana addiction. [Notice how it
doesn't mention anything about HOW this is damaging to your body. That
is because the receptor that it binds to is DESIGNED to accept
cannibanoids like THC, unlike any other substance that we put into our
bodies. All other substances either inhibit or accelerate chemical
reactions in your body, chemically unbalancing your system to have their
effects. THC on the other hand naturally binds to its own personal
receptor in your body, which is why there are no physical detriments to
your body as a result of use.]

If you feel that your marijuana use is out of your control and
interfering with your personal goals and happiness and you would like to
stop but can't seek help from addiction treatment professional. [ I
couldn't agree more.]

Bottom line is if you want the real deal, read the ACTUAL studies,
because printed propaganda only serves biased, disinformation. Learn to
recognize Junk-science, because what people don't realize is that this
is the result. We now have a grossly uninformed population controlling
legislation of a substance, that while needing to be controlled, is now
actually scheduled as a substance with 0 medical benefits-in spite of
numerous scientific studies to the contrary.

Hmmm, this is interesting.

This is rough because I like to be precise, and my beliefs wax and wane
according to the information I have .

Still, if I HAVE to describe my beliefs:

Overall I believe that Karma is actually a statistical law that shows
the correlation between a person's€ "goodness" and the amount of good in
their immediate environment.

I believe that everyone knows what is right or wrong, not because we are
inherently good or bad, but because it is common sense.

I think doing wrong, besides obviously being bad, is merely an
expression of a person's imbalance and lack of harmony with their own
life.

Since I do not let others dictate my actions, I can only try to maintain
harmony around me-that is the harmony/world I'm responsible for.

In spite of this knowledge of "good" and "bad", there are behaviors that
we must be aware of to lead a harmonious life. Good deeds are good in
direct relation to the amount of people that know about them. The more
people know, the less "good" something is, and the more it is food for
your ego/pride. Confidence is good, but pride can actually harm yourself
and others.

If there is a supreme deity, which is entirely possible, that deity does
NOT interfere with our lives. We have grown up by now, we have the tools
we need, and there would be no point in life if there wasn't free will.
The quality of your life and your choices in life directly impacts where
you are in life, while prayer may be a part of it, that doesn't mean
that this deity is responding. In other words, it all comes down to
personal responsiblity-there is no one else to blame but YOU.

Being selfish and self-centered is a trait of survival, but if it goes
too far, it is a trait of greed. You need to find the balance of
survival without being greedy. Greed causes disharmony.

The existence of deity is largely irrelevant in the scope of our
physical lives. What is most important is doing good for GOOD, not doing
good because you are supposed to. Forcing yourself to do the right thing
is as bad as making the wrong choice. Thus, acceptance of the now is of
supreme importance.

Intent IS as bad as action. We aren't perfect, so we can forgive
ourselves for unbalanced and bad intentions, but the intent has the same
effect on us as the action has to others.


Hmmm, I guess I could write a manifesto, but I'm tired. Smell ya
later!

Yeah, a nice alternative to the cut and paste are some links, and maybe
a three sentence summary about that link. I'm as long-winded as anybody
else on this forum, but even I didn't want to read all that.

Not to say I disagree, well mostly. Legalization-no.
Decriminalization-yes.

The thing of it is, the laws are too lenient on tobacco and alcohol
products, and too strict on 'ol MJ. While it isn't physically addictive
(although yes, you can still have physical withdrawal from a
non-physical addiction), smoking pot is something is something that
should only be done when you are bored and know you aren't going
anywhere.

And even then you should be reading or doing something
constructive .

ditto kiddo

Hmmm? Today, I will defend Christians, mainly because as usual, people
focus on the letter of the law, not the spirit- and either way they were
starting out of context.

For starters, yes The Ten Commandment have nine more "rules" than you
do, but Jesus summed it up in one as well, "Love others as you Love
yourself." Pretty basic, doesn't seem dogmatic, and I don't see that as
taking anyone away from "experiencing God".

Arguably, any other beliefs could also be taking people away from
Christianity, and thus experiencing God.

Some interesting things I have known when having "emotionally charged"
discussions with Christians, is that the ones that have the strongest
arguments not only take the Bible literally, but focus on the scriptures
within their context. No interpreting, no metaphors, just declarative
statements or descriptions that leave nothing to the imagination. Of the
different versions I've read (I'm also passingly familiar with the
Koran, Torah, Bhuddism general philosophy, Shinto, and others F.Y.I.),
the basic message is the same.

These things are Good.
These things are Bad.
Do the Bad things (murder, lie, kill, etc.), and bad things will happen
(fall out of God's grace, be reborn as an inferior entity, be cosmically
punished by the Statistical God of improbability, etc.)
Do Good things and good things will happen (umm, insert Good Things
here).

The Bible also has nutrition in it, telling you what foods are good and
bad (the same foods and diet that many nutritionists successfully use),
practical advice (obey the laws of mankind, happy people usually do X),
and even scientific and historical information (within the bible their
is scripture that states the world IS round [short sited people missed
that], and don't forget the fairly accurate and verifiable "time-line"
of the scriptures, which has not really come under dispute).

Of course, the problem that some people have with it is the other stuff,
like a long-haired white/black guy turning water into wine, walking on
water, and casting out demons. Oh sure, people hate the Adam and Eve
story, saying "oh, but then we have incestuous ancestors", but if you
read carefully, there WERE other people within the same time period-
otherwise God wouldn't have needed to put that mark on Cain .

So, if you are going to say a religion has contradictions, back it up.
Give examples, quote text, show a mastery of the material.Otherwise, it
is the equivalent of saying that the American Government is full of
contradictions, when you have to realize that all we are doing is
ignoring the Constitution -the bible of the American way.

Thing about chemistry is sometimes the mixture can be pleasing at first,
but in actuality it's toxic and volatile. Chemistry is tricky, because
while you can get along with people, it doesn't mean that emotionally
you are a participant. Laughing, joking and talking isn't all their is
to bonding/"having chemistry"- you have to be able to genuinely
EMPATHIZE with that person.

I know some amazing ladies whom I have a lot in common. We have fun,
talk, play-everything you would do with friends. Considering that
"chemistry" that we share, you would think, "Why not date your friend?"
Well, you wouldn't date your friend. Friends have chemistry sure, but
they generally lack that sexual tension that makes those chemically
charged relationships so interesting.

I'll have to try that for my nieces !

This is another one of the government projects that just seems to go
against common sense. I agree with *points into crowd* you when you
talked about the "old skool" program. Education does not mean
permission, but lack of education does mean ignorance. So we either have
a bunch of kids out there having sex, or we have a bunch of ignorant
kids having babies and STD's...?

Oooohwheee, people are getting "het up" over this topic.

I thought this was just an interesting topic, not a chance to
make personal attacks!!

Anyhoo. What you were saying earlier, I think I have a better grasp on
it. I still disagree, but I understand it !

See, while I know the Church as an institution (comprised of
individuals) perpetrated horrible crimes against logic and
forward-thinking, I still don't think that you can blame the RELIGION. I
mean, anyone who has read the bible can see that these were not just
crimes against thought, but "sins" as defined by it's, well, gospel.

And as for religion leading people away from God by telling people what
to do...

You can look at religion as "telling you what to do", or you can look at
it the way I think MOST Christians look at it as. It's kinda like God is
your daddy, so he tells you right from wrong, raises you, but
ultimately, its your choice to live your life how you want to. There are
always consequences for your actions, and chances are, dad's right about
what they are. Heck, he even wrote it down for you (so what if he had
your older brother do it, what- he's going to disobey dad? Besides your
older brother did a really good job writing down what your dad wanted to
say. It's lasted a really long time...)

You have your ways, habits, and methodologies of being "religious", and
Christians and others have theirs. It's a set of rules/guidelines that
have been developed over time- and neither group (yours included) has
the definitive argument, because it still comes down to a matter of
faith; because when you don't "need to prove" something, or can't
conclusively prove something and still believe it anyway- well that's
what they call taking it on faith !

Interesting...

First off, to answer the question directed to me by massagetrade:

Canabinoid receptors are actually activated by canibinoids...(i.e.
cannibinoids created naturally by your body, naturally occurring
canibinoids in the cannabis sativa plant, and newer synthetic
compounds.) If memory serves me correct, these are linked to pleasure
systems within the body, but you may want to look it up to be sure-
sorry, it's been a while since I studied up on it .

And more science to add food for thought:

Smoking pot has no long-term side-effects that have been determined. It
is not PHYSICALLY addictive (keep in mind, McDonald's Cheeseburgers are
as emotionally addictive as marijuana), and the short-term side effects
of cognitive impairment are due to a coating of the synapses. This
coating slows down synapse "firing", which can cause short-term memory
loss, loss perception (like peripheral vision), and a narrowing of
focus-coupled with the "positive high" that is the result of the binding
of THC to the cannibinoid receptor in your brain. (Keep in mind, I may
have some of the details a little wrong, but I'm accurate enough for the
purposes of this forum post).

The coating of the synapses actually goes away after a short duration;
so while long-term excessive use can impair mental activity due to lack
of use of certain, established neural pathways, "responsible" or
periodic use will help to avoid these dangers.

Or the non-medical/scientific response: If you are responsible, and
don't turn your "glass of wine a day" into a case of alcoholism, there
is even less danger and damage to your body than any other substance out
there. It's healthier than eating cheeseburgers-literally.

look, the way I see it, this is a social forum. It's like a giant
****tail party and kegger! People like to socialize, talk with folks,
get to know them, see how people work, etc. etc.

If you are looking for old friends, does it really hurt you any to talk
to new people?

But to answer your question, no, not understanding the interface, or
being clear on if you were clear is not a sign that you are "dumb". They
might not be dumb either, of course, they could be horrifically
retarded, but not because the messaged you.

hmmm? So what metric do you use to determine God's intention?

Ok, then who?

Surley not the incredible, edible Tomo?

You'll have to pardon me, I've been expressing my American
freedom to destroy my body with alcoholic chemicals

I'm not talking about people looking ape-ish, however, there are people
with skulls similar to that of some ancestors. Also, it might be more
appropriate to say that some apes look man-ish. Coco the gorilla who was
taught American sign language is able to communicate in this unique
language with some 6k+ words. Impressive for a human, even more
impressive for a "lower species." While it doesn't talk about animals
having anything in common with humans, what is interesting is that Coco
didn't identify with other gorillas. She referred to these "mute"
brothers and sisters as animals, because they were incapable of "higher"
communication. She actually identified herself with her human
handlers...which seems to point out that maybe the difference between us
and "dumb" animals is just our ability to communicate. Considering that
they often make more of an effort to understand us than we do them, I
have a hard time convincing myself that we are necessarily superior.
Maybe we're just different?

Can't resist this topic!

So, something interesting to add. Marijuana, whose active ingredient is
THC, works by bonding to the canibinoid receptor in your "brain" (I'm
not being specific, apologies, but I don't feel like looking up the
exact location *shrug* sue me).

The reason this is significant is because this is the only drug that
works this way. So, if God didn't design this drug, why did he include
the receptor in our bodies "made in HIS image"?

I haven't had this much fun in a discussion in a very long
time!

First off, for the record. I hope no one believes that opposition or
disagreement with an idea equals an attack, especially on a forum that
involves compulsory participation...that would be silly. So to those of
you that thought I was "attacking" Abra
(I know that might not be the case, but non-specificity of a target in
communication is the hallmark of the internet forum), I wasn't. I think
Abra has enjoyed the debate as much as most of us, and he didn't take
anything said personally.

That being said...

Abra, thanks for the clarification of Z's theory, however, the "spirit"
of my argument (if you'll pardon the pun) was actually supported by your
description of theories, and the uncertainty of some scientific
explanations. The point I was trying to make was that you are in fact a
religious man...

Allow me to clarify.

As you have explained your beliefs, you have a certain set of guidelines
that you use to structure your belief in a "higher being". You state
explicitly that your belief is that "God" as you describe the entity is
actually everything. Literally the Alpha and the Omega. While your
religion has fewer restrictions, it is arguably closer to Shinto than it
is to being your own unique philosophy. Of course, you had acknowledged
this earlier when you were trying to explain your beliefs.

If you need further proof, let me try to preempt a few counter points.

-If you think that your religion doesn't require faith, then what do you
call the basic agreement that reality exists? What I mean to say is- we
could argue all day, and conversations on proof and truth usually
devolve into questioning the infinite minutiae of details that comprised
the idea; inevitably leading to the question of existence. In order to
have any kind of discourse, or to even begin a debate, you have to
believe that you exist- in spite of the fact that you can never prove it
conclusively. Ever. Simple fact (after all, pick something apart enough
and you will find you don't have all the answers.) So without even
confirming it with you beforehand, I know that you believe you exist,
and this is a "fact" that you accept this on faith.

-http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion ... I think the
definition speaks for itself, in light of your previous statements on
science supporting your belief as to the nature of God.

Now what is the point you ask? Well, you might not, but others might, so
to clarify: Lump yourself in with all the others that have been "duped"
by religion. If religion in general is responsible for close-mindedness
and ignorance, as a religious man you are not immune to it's effects.
Unless your religion just happens to be right.

You also argued that religion didn't answer the question of why, because
belief isn't an answer, but I think that is because I was lazy and
paraphrased my question. My deepest apologies. What I meant to say is
that science explains how everything works (as you eloquently pointed
out), and religion explains why it bothers to work in the first place.
One is instructional, and the other is inspirational. Of course, you
explained that best:

"As far as I’m concerned I know
the answer to the question ‘why?’.

Life.

That’s why.

At least that’s why we exist - so that the universe can perceive
itself."

Hardly a "rational" explanation full of the observable and measurable,
but very poetic.

I think that science will always fail when it comes to explaining God
because of an interesting thing, if God is everything, then He is the
Nothing in-between the everything that exists, and how can you be what
is not?

Also, nice nod to Conversations with God with your reference to the
Universe perceiving itself...

Of course, I whole heartedly agree with you that science doesn't negate
religious belief, as both have their own individual purpose.

Have you ever really LOOKED at some people? Who's to say that while a
percentage of the population evolved, another percentage didn't. Keep in
mind that Darwinism doesn't exclude the non-evolution of a species, it
just explains how other species would have likely evolved.

Well said Abra! While I don't always agree with what you have to say, I
must give credit where credit is due. While not everyone can meet our
standards, we should expect them to be consistent in their
value-systems. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all
that.

Hehe

Forgot to mention, that when you claim a belief is ignorant, you are
including the people who share it. Language can be tricky, but if you
continue an action you shouldn't be surprised when you get the same
results, ne?

Rather, either stick to your guns and say that people are as ignorant as
their religions, or say that you unfortunately don't share those
beliefs. The fact of the matter is; belief in EXISTANCE and REALITY
requires a certain amount of faith. We are limited by our senses,
controlled by neurons that stop firing every 1 millionth of a second,
which means that we are missing out on 1 millionth of a second every
minute of every day.

Interestingly enough Abra, you’ve mentioned several times that you are a
scientist, so I’m going to assume that you are more than passingly
familiar with current research methods and the dangers of logical
fallacies.
Basic knowledge of history, unfortunately, doesn’t make you a
theological expert. Allow me to give you a more “mathematical”
opposition to your statements.
The issues that you have a problem with are labeled as “matters of
faith”. In fact, you base all of your criticisms around these, citing
contextual problems with the Bible because of a supposed corruption of
the source. Of course, being so observant of history, you must realize
that this is a problem with every historical document. It just so
happens that the Bible is one of the most verifiable and reproduced
historical documents today. While some wording has changed, the message
itself is relatively intact. Impressive for a document whose origins
span more than one millennium.
Ah, but I said that I was going to couch my example with an example that
might give you a different perspective, yes? Ok, as a scientist, in your
studies, have you come across the mathematical “truth” that you cannot
walk across a room? For the benefit of those that might not have heard
of this, allow me to explain. Mathematically, in order for you to cross
a room of any length, you must first cross half that distance. Of
course, mathematically, you must cross half THAT distance, and
interestingly enough, you can theoretically divide by two an infinite
number of times. Of course, we all know that we CAN in fact physically
cross the distance of a room, so how can this mathematical difference
with reality exist?
Because Math and Science are very accurate, but as a result very
limited. This is why there is Okham’s Razor, constant debate over
fundamental scientific theories, and a need for adaptation even within
science. As new information becomes present, we must adjust our
thinking. Faith has its place in every day life, we have a “feeling”
about certain things, and even though we haven’t measured and analyzed
every angle, these “feelings” are often correct. With all of Science’ s
explanations of how, there is not a single answer of why. To be honest,
as far as science is concerned, there isn’t a need for a why.
A more intelligent man than I once said, “An atheist is a person with no
visible means of support.” When religion supplies a reason to go on,
provides a reward for righteous behavior, and a faith that Justice will
be met; how is this belief damaging. Again, I am not religious, nor do I
have a need to be. I’m happy with the world spinning as it is.
Also, you didn’t quite answer my question, just slightly side-stepped
it. How DO you explain away the ability to acknowledge individual
responsibility with the actions of an organization? These “religions”
and “churches” are hardly doctrines that promote ignorance. It is
mankind’s character that resists change, not the belief. A belief is a
guide that people often live by, but you don’t blame the alcohol for the
car accident, you blame the drunk driver.