I don't see how you came to that conclusiong, but ok. You can't come to a non-egocentric way of torturing anyone, really. Torturing someone else is a manipulation for your own agenda.........whatever that agenda may be.

I see ur point about the dog, but it doesn't take much effort on my part to kick a dog in the nose..........and not worry about whether it was "evil" or not.

There are times, where my survival is not as important as my "heart". Death is simply a part of life. I know, it is scary as hell to face death, but it is inevitable for us all.............SO, I would rather die holding to what I value than to be stripped of it just to die later, with nothing.

It is true, you can't take anything physical with you.........but I believe you CAN take compassion, etc.

Again, just because I don't understand your "logic" doesn't mean it isn't logical, maybe a better explanation from you could help??

I actually love that scripture........but if I may try to answer your question............

One, clay is not a being. It has no thoughts, no feelings, no desires of its own....to an extent..... By that I mean, that thinks bode easier for the potter if he sits down to make a "creation" but allows that creation freedom to design itself. I've done hair a good part of my life, and I was rather good at styling it, but that is because I let the hair tell me best where to put it. There are parts, hair growth, etc. that have it's own "design" instead of manipulating it completely the best outcome is when you go with the flow..... I know, this was just an observation when it comes to "art", but I suppose people use pottery for practical purposes, if they want a bowl they want a bowl..........

However, I am not ok with being someone elses "bowl" or "cup". I am a living, breathing, being not an inanimate object. So to compare mankind with pottery sounds all romantical and such........but it just doesn't quite fit, imo.

Do we as humans have the right to clone human beings to make slaves out of them?? Do we as parents (in essence we had a huge part in their "creation") have a right to force our "way" on them.........even as adults??

I don't think so. I am somewhat of an artist, a creator of sorts, with words and other things............ Art is something unto itself. I have written several poems that seemed to "be". I didn't give them life, but rather I gave them a voice.

I don't believe "God" (if there is one) "created" us from scratch, but rather that he gave us a medium. Our energy was already there, even if it was a part of him, once brought forth it becomes a life unto it's own.

(I'm not sure if I'm explaining this correctly)

What you are speaking of, imo, is slavery. To create a conscious, living being to suit your own purposes............ If that is what "God" did, then I feel we are right in rebelling................

If we just did what we were told without asking "Why" we would be nothing more than robots.

"Why" is asked to decipher if one is willing to concede or not, if the explanation goes against what one wants or believes, then they say no.

Without "why" our will would not exist.

Wow, I knew what "evil" was to me.........but the way you put it in your last paragraph...was AWESOME!

Though I agreed one hundred percent with the rest of ur post........I have to disagree that other animals are capable of intentional destruction, maybe not on a large scale, but dogs for one will intentionally destroy things out of spite. I dog sat for my ex's boss at once, and it tore up stuff all over the floor and then hid under my bed to continue the mess there.....all because we left it home alone for a few hours. I'm sure primates are capable of the same.........but anyhoo, I'm not sure that it has much of an effect on the truth of ur post.

LOL, I feel ya on that one.

I'm not saying it is the "truth", as I personally don't believe that "Heaven" and "Hell" exist..........at least not in any spiritual sense....

I'm simply saying why they believe that.........and if you were to take some views.......it isn't your action or non action that saves it, but rather grace. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved except accept the said gift of salvation.... being receiving Christ.

I tend to believe in reincarnation........you will keep living life until you fix what it is you keep screwing up. In my mind if anything is Hell, life here on planet earth is.........but in that, it serves a purpose.

Well, not really.......what you are missing is that we (those of us who are considering that Jesus may in fact have gotten some of his principle from Buddhism) are not consider the Bible to be of anymore authority than any other "book", than logic, and deduction based on logic and information available. If the words Jesus' was quoted to have said..........were indeed the things he taught..........then it is not so far fetched. However, to know that the Bible was indeed written by humans.........it isn't necessarily a concrete black and white authority for a lot of us.

nvm, :D

I could explain it........."repentance" truly means a "change" an "about face" you turn away from whatever it is you are repentant of..........

I personally agree with it.......people make bad choices in life......and despite how we judge eachother.......most of us are simply doing our best to "get through" life......

A change of heart, desires, intentions in essence frees the self............it isn't a matter of "God" forgiving you, imo, but rather you learn to forgive yourself.

There is not one man alive who is not capable of becoming Hitler, or Bin Laden...........and though it isn't completely dependent on circumstances........they do have an awful amount of influence.

I promise no one could torture another's soul, more than a soul that has not accepted itself already does.

I don't believe children are completely "devilish"..........I believe they can be at times, but I have never met a child who was all "bad"........or all "good".

I have a child many would describe as you have these other children.

He is sweet, loving, kind, very creative.............but as he is still a child these wonderful characteristics: determination, strong will, and the creativity previously mentioned can make it difficult to parent him. His will is as strong as mine.........so do as I say just because I say so rarely works with him.

He's hit, kicked, screamed, cussed, hated, and threatened to kill me with one breath, and hugged me, told me he loved me, etc. with the next.

No amount of "punishment" works.

Punishment does not make one love you, it makes one afraid of you.........there is a difference. The fear of someone will cause you to change your behavior for a while.........

Such as, when they are around (vs when they are not)

and until you are bigger/stronger than they are...........

However, leadership and guidance offers tools.........it is up to the child as an individual to use those tools. If he chooses to screw up his life, it is his life. It will sadden me to see him/her make poor choices, but until they do right, for the sake of doing right........because they have seen that it is a benefit to them.........they will continue on the path they choose.

My thoughts are hard to explain.

There is a book called "Love and Logic" and it talks about the "coddling" parent. There is a difference between unconditionally loving your child, accepting your child...........and being a mat for your child to stomp his dirty feet on. It becomes a problem, when you do not allow them to suffer the consequences of their actions........... It is the consequences that teach the lesson...........they are not devised by you once they become old enough to have "real world" consequences.......

If they spend all their "allowance" on a video game then they don't have money to buy deoderant, etc.

Punishment and consequences aren't the same thing, imo.

I do not understand how you feel that no one actually does "good deeds" because it makes them feel good.....so therefore it is "not good" because it is self serving..........

Should doing something for another NOT make you feel good, feel connected to the world around you, feel like you are capable of making a difference??

And I'm sure that the person on the receiving end feels good because someone decided to help.

It is a natural thing, do "good" and you feel "good". I consider "good" to be beneficial, and "bad" to be detrimental.......so if you do something beneficial for another, you are going to benefit.....however if you cause detriment to another....then you take away from yourself.

I'll have to think on that theory, and then respond.......but I however lean toward my believe that you can not OFFEND a god that is a true "God". That is like saying that my children can offend me. I suppose for some people their children do offend them.....but to me, and my mind finding offense in another is simply a root of the desire to manipulate those around you in an attempt to "smooth" over your own issues.

Someone can only truly "offend" me (though that offense matters little when looking at the big picture) When they have indeed loved me, gotten to know me intimately (not necessarily sexually) and then not respected "me". If they never knew me, I could not/would not be offended by anything they could do, not in the spiritual/mental sense. I mean, I'd obviously consider it an offense for someone to smack me, but it doesn't make me hate them.

As a matter of fact, because I belief in FREE WILL, I feel that anyone can do/will do whatever it is that makes them happy......and even when it causes me pain/suffering.......it is still my responsibility on how I allow that to affect me. Am I going to allow it to bring something so negative into my heart as hate??? No. I will more than likely feel sympathy, as in my mind.....they are simply trying to live life in the ways they know how.

Anyhoo.........With my children (IF indeed there is a God who is father of us all, I'm sure he'll be a BETTER parent than myself) I give them boundaries.....these boundaries are not for my own benefit (for the most part) but for theirs. If they break these boundaries I do not get angry or "hate" them......but rather try to help them understand what they should learn from it and what they should do different next time.

I have found/know unconditional love........and unconditional love does not say, IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL.........................

I LOVE YOU FREELY, BUT YOU MUST.........................

A true/good/healthy father/mother does not PUNISH, but guides in hopes that children will fulfill their potential, that they will grow to be happy, healthy, loving adults.

Imho, the "average" person tends to judge "good" and "evil" by how it feels (to the body, rather than being aware of the "total" being when judging what "feels" good or bad)

I do not believe in "good" or "bad" necessarily.......but rather what is beneficial and detrimental to the emotional/mental/spiritual/physical growth of a person/all persons.

What is perfect?? How do you define it? You say that "God's word" is powerful, and is law, and one can not go against it........and in the same breath say that those who go against it are in rebellion and "God" because he is "perfect" and "just" must cast said sinner into the Lake of Fire.

A "LAW" that is a TRUE law, can not be broken. It is only laws made my man that can be......because they indeed are subjective.

If God's laws make it so, then it would be impossible to "offend" him.....it would be impossible to "rebel".

I respect you much, Deb, just pointing out what I consider flaws in logic.

"free will" does not exist when talking about an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent being....... One who sets things in motion, has the world in his hand, is in control.............It is impossible to offend such a one. Impossible I say.


To answer the OP, I do not believe that "God" loves us, because I believe that my "god" IS love.

What do you think about a man.....who says......."I love you, but if you don't love me back, I'm going to shoot you" ???????

Have you studied Buddhism???

I enjoyed it.........it was a very effective way of getting the point across.

I understand your frustrations.......... I figure it is them that loses (so to speak) because there are many insightful things in Buddhism that could help one in life if they simply observed and practiced them...

Ummmmmmmm, it IS the philisophical similarities that bring up the question.

I was a "Christian" for twenty years of my life.....and was heavy into church. (I am not now, but I've read the Bible many times over) Jesus' teachings are very much like Buddhist teachings. Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a way of life.........you take what you need from it and don't worry about the rest. Buddha didn't see himself as any "god" but rather a teacher of things he had learned. So, one could be BOTH Buddhist and Christian.