Yes, many times we participate in that choice. (I picked mine in this life.)

JB

C.S.;

Yes. It took over a moth to shake the flu and it's after affects. Haven't had the time to post lately, as I work 65 hours a week and have to drive over an hour in each direction to get there. I'm working on the Scorsese movie - and they're into overdrive now. Finally got a Saturday off though. (Yahoo).

To continue... I have a hard time reconcilling God's "waiting" for some one to pray for something, them choosing them over another. I tend to think that if it was his will that one person get the job over another - it's going to happen whether the employer has free will (or freedom of choice as I like to phrase it) or not. It becomes a matter of perception, and this is where I think God has His greatest influence. Some call it "intuition". At any rate - did not God know before the beginning of time that the person who prayed for the job was going to do so? So the idea that he "suddenly" decided that the timing of the prayer influenced His decision defies our understanding of an omniscient God - doesn't it?

Anyone can pray for anything, but it will only be answered if prayed from the heart, and when God sees fit. As far as this applying to what you are saying CS. If the boss decided to give you the job as you were praying, I don't think it's taken away from the boss' free will, I just think that maybe the Lord would put it on his heart to hire you......

I know that when I pray, that the Lord answers my prayers.....but understand that once I do pray it is then given to the Lord. I no longer have anything to do with it, in the respect of when it will be answered. I will give you an example that I have used in the past. I switched on the TV one night and it was the reality show Saving Bonaduce. This is Danny from the Partridge family in the 70's. Anyway, it was at a part where he was in front of a liquor store downing a bottle of vodka and chasing it with OJ.....(he was also addicted heavily to steroids) The spirit of the Lord so touched me that I was instantly on my knees and praying for Danny. I did so and kept a journal for more then a year and a half. Now at this time I was watching the show all the time. And then stopped....but never ceased in my prayers for him, his wife Gretchen and their two kids.

One day I turned on the TV again and it was on and he was being Baptized and had turned his life completely over to Christ. I also was at the time e-mailing both him and his wife and speaking to them on myspace. I gave a testimony in church regarding this and sat down. My oldest daughter looked at me and said, "Mom you can't think that your praying had anything to do with him being saved." I replied to her you bet your sweet bippy I do. Now shortly after his wife started proceedings to divorce him....again the Lord spoke to my heart and I prayed that Danny hold strong and hold onto the Lord during this tough time. He has up to this date.

So for anyone to say to me that prayer either doesn't hold water, or whatever they want to say about it....Just doesn't hold water with this lady, because I am living proof of the power of prayer.....

It was nice of you to pray for him, but I don't think you should take the credit for what happens in his life. It is extremely likely that he would have turned his life around with or without your prayers, but if you believe that your prayers are what made the difference then that is true in your reality. It may be all in your mind, but to you it is true.

I am of the belief that one person cannot create reality or make choices for other people. The idea of free will prohibits this.

Yet we pray for our loved ones to change their ways in the hope that we know what is best for them. (We don't really.) So the letting go of the request is the part where you let go of your attachment to the outcome ~~and you let go so that their free will is not hindered.

A person will always do what they choose to do in the end. No amount of prayer can change or influence that. So let him have the credit for turning his life around. (Don't pat yourself on the back so much.)

Don't you think he deserves most of the credit, or are you going to take that from him?

No offense I hope.

JB

Eljay:

I understand what you say, and why... considering things as free is a misnomer, no thing is free from influence and/or exposure... no thing...

feral:

That which lives within us keeps us on our own path, or demands and creates a new one. When one lives life with a mind-set of self-substantiation, then all which is perceived is molded into that which has been previously accepted as truth. No amount of evidence can contradict that which is already self-contained.

JB:

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Geee I'm sorry.

What were my words doing in your mouth? (Did I kiss you or something?) mmmmm

Prayer does not go against a persons free will...of course not....otherwise it would be considered mind control!!!

And man would be nothing less than mind controlled robots....

No...that is not what Feral meant here, when she said God answered her prayers for her friend.
There could have been many others praying also for this guy.

But the effectual and ferveant prayers of believers do not go unheard before God.
And God even says in his Word to pray
without ceasing.
God must have had a reason for asking us to pray, right?

There is power in Prayer...prayers of faith especially can move mountains ...and if prayers of faith can move mountains, surely it can at least move on a person's heart ..but in the end, the person still has to make a willing choice on his own.

So therefore..no... prayer does not interfere with man's free will...however, prayer may be effectual...in breaking down strongholds in a person's life..or hindering spirits that may be blocking a person from receiving from God....BUT man STILL is the one, who makes the decision in the end, of his own free will...to either accept God or reject God, for instance.

Also.....There are many different kinds of prayer.

Just to name a few.....
There are prayers of thanksgiving, prayers of partition, prayers of intercession, prayers of faith( feral's prayer was most likely prayers of faith and intercession ).

More on prayer later.

yes and no

yes it is gods will regardless

for god buts multiple paths b4 you

thus what ever path you choose is gods will

but you have the free will to choose whichever path you wish

so yes it can and is both

I have shared this article before on prayer.... but sharing it again ....to help others understand why Feral had faith to beleive her prayers were answered.

But please...do not misunderstand this article to mean that this is the ONLY way God answers prayer. NOT!!

Cause God has mercy on the unjust as well as the just...and will answer prayer ...and move as HE wills.

Many a time, a nonbeleiver's prayers were answered...
So again...just sharing this article to show how God moves on a believers behalf.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~


...........How to Pray: Prayers That Get Answered.........

Have you ever known someone who really trusts God? When I was an atheist, I had a good friend who prayed often. She would tell me every week about something she was trusting God to take care of. And every week I would see God do something unusual to answer her prayer. Do you know how difficult it is for an atheist to observe this week after week? After a while, "coincidence" begins to sound like a very weak argument.

So why would God answer my friend's prayers? The biggest reason is that she had a relationship with God. She wanted to follow God. And she actually listened to what he said. In her mind, God had the right to direct her in life, and she welcomed him doing just that! When she prayed for things, it was a natural part of her relationship with God. She felt very comfortable coming to God with her needs, her concerns, and whatever issues were current in her life. Furthermore, she was convinced, from what she read in the Bible, that God wanted her to rely on him like that.

She pretty much exhibited what this statement from the Bible says, "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us."1 "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer..."2

So, Why Doesn't God Answer Everyone's Prayers?
It may be because they don't have a relationship with God. They may know that God exists, and they might even worship God from time to time. But those who never seem to have their prayers answered probably don't have a relationship with him. Further, they have never received from God complete forgiveness for their sin. What does that have to do with it you ask? Here is an explanation. "Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God. Your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."3

It's pretty natural to feel that separation from God. When people begin to ask God for something, what usually takes place? They begin with, "God, I really need your help with this problem..." And then there's a pause, followed by a restart... "I realize that I'm not a perfect person, that I actually have no right to ask you for this..." There's an awareness of personal sin and failure. And the person knows that it's not just them; that God is aware of it too. There's a feeling of, "Who am I kidding?" What they may not know is how they can receive God's forgiveness for all their sin. They might not know that they can come into a relationship with God so that God will hear them. This is the foundation for God answering your prayer.

How to Pray: The Foundation
You must first begin a relationship with God. Imagine some guy named Mike decides to ask the president of Princeton University (whom Mike doesn't even know) to co-sign a car loan for him. Mike would have zero chance of that happening. (We're assuming that the president of Princeton is not an idiot.) However, if that same president's daughter asked her dad to co-sign a car loan for her, it would be no problem. Relationship matters.

With God, when the person is actually a child of God, when the person belongs to God, he knows them and hears their prayers. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me...my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."4

When it comes to God then, do you really know him and does he know you? Do you have a relationship with him that warrants God answering your prayers? Or is God pretty distant, pretty much just a concept in your life? If God is distant, or you're not sure that you know God, here is how you can begin a relationship with him right now: Getting Connected.

Will God Definitely Answer Your Prayer?
For those who do know him and rely on him, Jesus seems to be wildly generous in his offer: "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you."5 To "remain" in him and have his words remain in them means they conduct their lives aware of him, relying on him, listening to what he says. Then they're able to ask him whatever they want. Here is another qualifier: "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us -- whatever we ask -- we know that we have what we asked of him."6 God answers our prayers according to his will (and according to his wisdom, his love for us, his holiness, etc.).

Where we trip up is assuming we know God's will, because a certain thing makes sense to us! We assume that there is only one right "answer" to a specific prayer, assuming certainly THAT would be God's will. And this is where it gets tough. We live within the limits of time and limits of knowledge. We have only limited information about a situation and the implications of future action on that situation. God's understanding is unlimited. How an event plays out in the course of life or history is only something he knows. And he may have purposes far beyond what we could even imagine. So, God is not going to do something simply because we determine that it must be his will.

What Does It Take? What is God Inclined to Do?
Pages and pages could be filled about God's intentions toward us. The entire Bible is a description of the kind of relationship God wants us to experience with him and the kind of life he wants to give us. Here are just a few examples:

"...the Lord longs to be gracious to you. He rises to show you compassion. For the Lord is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for [trust] him!"7 Did you catch that? Like someone rising out of his chair to come to your help, "He rises to show you compassion." "As for God, his way is perfect...He is a shield for all who take refuge in him."8 "The Lord delights in those who fear [reverence] him, who put their hope in his unfailing love."9

However, God's greatest display of his love and commitment to you is this: Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends,"10 which is what Jesus did for us. And so, "If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since God did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won't God, who gave us Christ, also give us everything else?"11

What about "Unanswered" Prayer?
Certainly people get sick, even die; financial problems are real, and all sorts of very difficult situations can come up. What then?

God tells us to give our concerns to him. Even as the situation remains dismal, "Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you."12 The circumstances may look out of control, but they aren't. When the whole world seems to be falling apart, God can keep us together. This is when a person can be very grateful that they know God. "The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."13 God may provide solutions, resolutions to the problem WAY beyond what you imagined possible. Probably any Christian could list examples like this in their own lives. But if the circumstances do not improve, God can still give us his peace in the midst of it. Jesus said, "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful."14

It is at this point (when circumstances are still tough) that God asks us to continue to trust him -- to "walk by faith, not by sight" the Bible says. But it's not blind faith. It is based on the very character of God. A car traveling on the Golden Gate Bridge is fully supported by the integrity of the bridge. It doesn't matter what the driver may be feeling, or thinking about, or discussing with someone in the passenger seat. What gets the car safely to the other side is the integrity of the bridge, which the driver was willing to trust.

In the same way, God asks us to trust his integrity, his character...his compassion, love, wisdom, righteousness on our behalf. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."15 "Trust in him at all times, O people. Pour out your heart before him. God is a refuge for us."16

In Summary...How to Pray
God has offered to answer the prayers of his children (those who have received him into their lives and seek to follow him). He asks us to take any concerns to him in prayer and he will act upon it according to his will. As we deal with difficulties we are to cast our cares on him and receive from him a peace that defies the circumstances. The basis for our hope and faith is the character of God himself. The better we know him, the more apt we are to trust him.

For more on the character of God, please see "Who is God?" or other articles on this site. The reason for our prayers is God's character. The first prayer God answers is your prayer to begin a relationship with God.

@Article :by Marilyn Adamson

(1) 1 John 5:14
(2) 1 Peter 3:12
(3) Isaiah 59:1,2
(4) John 10:14,27-28
(5) John 15:7
(6) 1 John 5:14,15
(7) Isaiah 30:18
(8) Psalms 18:30
(9) Psalms 147:11
(10) John 15:13
(11) Romans 8:32
(12) 1 Peter 5:7
(13) Philippians 4:5-7
(14) John 14:27
(15) Jeremiah 31:3 (rsv)
(16) Psalms 62:8

On more thing I will add on Feral's behalf......
Born again christians have a great burden for souls.

There is a crying out in the spirit of a christian for a nonbeleiver..and God will impress on a believer's heart to pray for someone....and usually that urgency will be very very strong...with weeping and intercession...as was in Ferals' case for her friend.

God says to go into all the world and tell the untold....and we as christians go out of love for others....cause we don't want to keep this all to ourselves....
and God's pure love in us is moving our hearts with compassion..to where we fall on our kness and cry out to God..that others may have what we have, too.

So..point is..it was LOVE that moved Feral to pray like that for her friend....mixed with childlike FAITH and Deep Interccession.....cause she knew she could trust in Abba Father to give her the desires of her heart ....especially when the desire of her heart was God's will also..that her friend be saved.

Love did that.
Not Feral.
Feral was just the willing instrument that Love moved thru.

And God's Love could flow thru Feral, Because of her right standing with God....and her yieldedness to allow God to use her life as He wills.

She was just a willing vessel God chose for intercession for a lost soul.
See.... God knew He could trust Feral... as His child...to pray for her friend's salvation...

A book called "Ask and it is Given" by Esther and Jerry Hicks explains how the power of attraction works and how the thought of a thing ... (and asking is the thought).... will manifest and be given to the person doing the thinking/asking.

All things being connected, and all things work together to bring about the thing prayed for. (Thought about or asked for)

This is the act of prayer and the law of attraction, and it is the way the thought universe works. It works for everyone who knows how to ask in the right way. It will work for anyone with any religion and it will work for an atheist too. It is the thought universe at work. It is the law of attraction.

I do not mean to say that there is no intelligent force (God or the universe) involved in this process, I am quite convinced there is. The universe is intelligent and it is a thought universe. People (and other entities) are the thinking centers. Their thoughts are what set things in motion. Yes prayers work if they are done correctly with faith and belief.

What I am saying is that if done right, with faith and belief, any person, regardless of religion, can ask and it will be given, if they know how to receive with belief and gratitude.

JB

"GODS" will is apparently our free will

well GOD gave us free will so then wouldnt free will be GODs will

I think what Mirror is saying here is....

It was God's will that man be given a free will.....
meaning God created man with a free will.

But just beause God created man with a free will to choose... does not make God's will and man's free will...one and the same.

It is God's will that all men be saved.

But... if it WERE the case.....that God's will and free will WERE one and the same,
then man's free will would sound something like this :

" It is man's free will that all man be saved".

Hmmmm.....Not the same....eh?

Im just saying that if there was/is a Deity of some kind that created humans, then it obviously created humans with free will.

It is God's will for us to have free will to make our own decisions. Be they good, bad, sinful, or of an abiding nature. The CHOICE! is up to us.

Free Agency is the choice we made in the pre-existance. Every action creates a reaction, hence we create our own consiquences. That's why we have "guidelines" to help us along the way.

Yes....I agree Jeannie.....There are prayers answered and healings that miraculously take place, even among non christians.
A lot of new age healers get results too....in fact, there are signs and wonders everywhere today.
And natural medicine is even the rave among christians today.....even I practice natural medicine...with results that drs could not even give.

There is a power of positive thinking, for sure.
In fact, God says, as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

BUT.... even though prayers and healings and miracles are taking take place in many different ways, I still as a christian, always give God thanks for it all...for the naturopathic methods I practice.....along with all the other God given wisdom God gives me naturally to follow....cause to me, it all still comes from God, even if there are some who don't believe in God.

Let's look at all this in a simplified way....

Say a person cuts his finger.......
and the finger heals.
Who did the healing.....where did the miracle of healing come from?
From man?
From nature?
Or God.....

Didn't God create nature?
And the body to heal sometimes on its own?
It still all comes from God...yes?

God gave us also the herbs of the field to use, yes?
But it still comes from God...all of it.

See..everything is a miracle......and every miracle is from God.....everytime a person who is ill, for instance...say with a cold...and becomes well again...well...that healing is a miracle.


Simply put...if it weren't for God , there would be no life.... no miracle...no prayers answered....no nothng.....and to me, the fact that I live and breathe.....is a miracle....and everyday I live, is an answer to prayer.

The fact that all the birds sing outside my window every morn at the crack of dawn, is a miracle.

Who made the birds to sing at the very crack of dawn every morn?
Man?
Or God....

Oh.......and lastly........
The fact that a little chubby mouse ,that I have been trying to catch for 3 weeks, is still alive, after being caught in a trap 3 different times (one time he even crawled OUT of his mouse trap) .... is also a miracle.!!!

And the fact that I took the poor critter far from the house ... and let him go into the woods.......to escape to his freedom...
and even left him a bowl of cheese and crackers there in the woods for him.....is also a miracle...and no more mouse in the house is an answer to prayer.
Maybe that poor mouse was praying too.

But seriously....if it weren't for God...again..... there would be no prayers answered....no miracles... no nothing.

So God gets all the glory ...for it All.
Even for a little mouse .

So you think you’re closer to God than other people?

That’s nice.

Tell God not to worry about me. I much prefer dying than everlasting life. That was a choice he gave me and I accepted. And I thank him for that. But I’m sure he already knows. I have absolutely no desire to play silly power-struggle games and an jealous egotistical deity for the rest of eternity. And I also have no desire to be its pet.

I’ll go out with Patrick Henry, “Give me Liberty or Give me Death”.

My favorite political quote of all time, and it even applies to Gods.

I’ll gladly accept death over slavery even unto a God. I have no fear of death. And hell is not an option unless God is less compassionate than me. But if that’s the case then everyone’s in really deep trouble. If you are going to serve a God for all of eternity who is less compassionate than a mere mortal man I hope you have the option of choosing death at a later date. You just might end up making that choice after a while.

If the biblical God is true I’m out of the game by CHOICE. And apparent we have that choice. Just don’t believe in it and you’re out of the game. It’s that easy, and it’s the path I’ve CHOSEN by free will. I can’t go to hell because that’s not an option under the rules of the game. And as I’ve stated if God sends decent people to hell just because they don’t want to be his slaves then he’s far less compassionate than me. I would never be so cruel to my creations. I would freely offer death to anyone who didn’t want to be my slave.

Of course, I would have no use for servants an slaves anyway. So I wouldn’t even be into the whole worship game to begin with. I have no desire to be the King of Kings. In fact, I don’t even want to be the magistrate of my local town. As a matter of fact, I’m not into the authoritarian fetish at all.

I have no use for a God who has ambitions to rule over the world as the King of Kings. Sounds extremely medieval to me. If God isn’t any less egotistical then men, then I choose death. That’s my final answer.

So don't even bother praying for me. I've already made my choice.

I'm just not interested in playing medieval war games.

I will pray God open the eyes of your understanding ,Abra.. to the truth...and not this lie the enemy is feeding you about God.

The devil is the father of all lies..and I bind this deception off you this day in Jesus Name........... I pray this gross misunderstanding about God be broken off you....once and fro all....and you get set free .

Also..Jesus says to his people, I call you friend...not slave...but friend.
God is not a task master.. ...

Also....Abra... you will not die...... you will live for all eternity....somewhere....cause your spirit and soul lives on....only your earthly house (flesh) dies.

Abra...truly Praying your spiritual eyes will be opened...simply because I care...