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| Topic: Did God create evil? | |
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My only question here is that if you sincerely believe this then why are you always attempting to support scripture by using ‘reason’ and ‘logic’ to try to explain it? I can't prove that God exists. When I said reason, I meant the opposite of faith...knowing for a fact that God exists. If Christianity wasn't logical or if it couldn't be understood, then who would believe it? The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ You don’t need to be a supreme being to understand that not believing in something is nowhere near the same thing as choosing to reject it and choosing to worship something else that also only exists within that same thing that you don’t believe in This bothers me a lot. Abra, the scripture is clear and I was clear, what is going on here with you? Are you purposefully ignoring what I posted? "The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ" You are pretending like that's not there...why? This scripture is talking about people who know the Gospel, reject the Gospel and instead worship the anti-christ. This scripture is not accusing those who reject the gospel of worshipping the anti-christ, it's clearly talking about those who choose to worship the anti-christ. That’s still a demonic God who would play such ‘guessing games’ with people’s souls. What kind of a God would expect people to guess if he’s real? And then punish them severely for having guessed wrong? You are missing an important point. It's not a guessing game. Think about this. These people are people who know the gospel. They know about the anti-christ, so they will recognize him for what he is and worship him anyways. After that, God has decided that those people will be condemned. They knew the choice they were making, they choose to worship the anti-christ over Christ. And besides, there are other pictures of God that aren’t so demonic. The pantheistic picture of God has set things up so that you can’t possibly be condemned no matter what you do. The pantheistic picture of God is truly unconditional love. . Pure Unconditional Love What is unconditional love? It's loving someone regardless of their actions or their feelings towards you. God feels that for all people. But what is your defintion of love? If your wife were addicted to drugs, would you try to make her quit or would you feed her habit? If your child became a serial killer, would you turn in your child or help cover up the crimes? Jesus said "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent" God punishes out of love. I don't want to get into the subject of hell, because to me, hell isn't what Catholics or many others describe. I think the Bible isn't very clear about hell, but there are many interesting clues. By the way, this isn’t the first time the biblical God controlled the actions of others. He also hardened the heart of the Pharaoh of Egypt when he sent Moses to free the slaves. And then after he hardened the Pharaoh’s heart he made terrible things happen to the people of Egypt too. Quite a game-playing God. Pharaoh had (without looking I can't be sure, but I'm close) seven chances. Each chance ended with Pharaoh lying to Moses and God that he would free the Jews. After the 7th (I think) lie, God decided that Pharaoh didn't get any more chances. You can say what you will, about the subject, but I think everyone should know that God didn't do this to play games, he did it because Pharoah was playing games. |
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Hmmm...
 Acknowledgement is also considered considerate. 
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Evil Conflicts with the existence of God; therefore, either God doesn't care or God doesn't really exist. Pretty simple. I mean with all the evil in the world today don't you think a supreme being would step in and stop it?
I found an example of this logic on the web- Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot, or he can but does not want to, or he cannot and does not want to, or lastly he can and wants to. If he wants to remove evil, and cannot, he is not omnipotent; If he can, but does not want to, he is not benevolent; If he neither can nor wants to, he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent; But if God can abolish evil and wants to, how does evil exist? |
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or he can but does not want to, If he can, but does not want to, he is not benevolent; the traditional argument is that evil is allowed to persist to permit free will and the opportunity for humankind to choose good over evil - this is considered to be a greater good than merely making good meaningless by eliminating any alternative. 
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yes but you only used a bit of the logic, what of the rest?
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if God can eliminate evil but chooses not to
(as the optimum solution to providing meaning to life) then the other arguments no longer apply! 
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Edited by
yzrabbit1
on
Sat 02/16/08 07:40 AM
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They are sharing their beliefs on a doctrine no differently than you are. You just don’t like their beliefs is all. There is a difference. I speak positively of my beliefs and I don't speak negatively of other's beliefs. But let's just forget that, shall we? 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. Let me explain this. Not to you Abra or Rabbit, but to everyone who reads these forums. BACKGROUND Jesus proclaimed that there would be no sign to those without faith, other than his death and resurrection. God wants to be worshiped through faith, not reason. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 explained This is talking about the coming of the anti-Christ. This is fortelling his coming in the name (place) of Satan. This scripture tells us that those who heard the gospel, but rejected it and instead accepted the anti-Christ as their god, will be prevented from realizing their mistake. Remember the background information I gave you. God won't give signs, he's not doing parlor tricks. If someone has rejected the gospel, they will be deluded into ignoring or misinterpreting the signs of the supernatural that will appear in the world during the end times. These are the people who will witness the two prophets and the angels in the sky calling humanity to repent and ignore them. So even if someone has memorized the Bible, they will continue to ignore the realized prophecies, because God is going to manifest his presence on earth not for those who heard and rejected the Gospel, but for those who haven't heard or didn't understand the Gospel. Don't be confused, this verse isn't saying that God is going to make people believe a lie, God will prevent these people from recognizing the signs of the end times. The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ. They will have already rejected God and God is going to make sure that they don't change their mind based on the signs he provides to the world to bolster the faith of Christians and to lead the lost (who have never heard or didn't understand the Gospel) to Jesus. I know this isn't written well, but it's 2:00 AM and I'm still getting over the flu. I will answer any questions or requests for clarification. Even if he is doing this for a reason he is still telling a lie. I know you will say he is being deceptive but my Mama taught me that it is called lying. Second, these people are still alive when he interferes with them. He is even admitting that they may change their mind if they were given all the information. Why would the God that let Satan free to terrorize the earth and below for eternity all in the effort to not break his "free will" vow do this? It seems like this "free will" thing is important to him. Almost like his whole religion is based somewhat on "free will". Almost like the religion would be hollow with out it. Does everyone have free will through out their life or is free will just a thing that God sometimes gives and other times takes away? edit- one more thought If God will give free will to Satan why would his followers get less free will? They are just followers he is the Anti-Christ. |
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This bothers me a lot. Abra, the scripture is clear and I was clear, what is going on here with you? Are you purposefully ignoring what I posted? "The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ" You are pretending like that's not there...why? This scripture is talking about people who know the Gospel, reject the Gospel and instead worship the anti-christ. This scripture is not accusing those who reject the gospel of worshipping the anti-christ, it's clearly talking about those who choose to worship the anti-christ. Ok, if that's true then it's not necessary to believe in Christianity. Pure and simple. If disbelieving in the Gospels does not equate to rejecting God then Christians who have claim that non-believers are rejecting God because they don’t believe in Christianity are wrong. Clearly if a disbelieve in the Gospels does not equate to rejecting God, then God must have provided other ways for the non-believers to worship him. Thus, Christianity cannot be the ONE true religion and the Bible can’t be the ONLY TRUE word of God. That is my only point and if I’m made it I’ve succeeded in getting my point across. Because I have always held that there is no harm in believing in Christianity if you want to. My only objection is the notion that everyone Must believe in it to find favor with God and that it’s doctrine (the Bible) is the Only True Word of God. Clearly that can’t be the case if rejecting the religion is not the same as rejecting God. I rest my case, and I’ve made the only point that I ever really wanted to make – It’s not necessary to believe in Christianity to be in harmony with God. Christianity is not the only true religion. That’s the only point I care to make. If you want to believe in Christianity be my guest, but stop telling people that the Bible is the only true word of God. Start recognizing that it’s merely one of many ways to worship our creator. This is all anyone has ever asked you to do. |
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My only question here is that if you sincerely believe this then why are you always attempting to support scripture by using ‘reason’ and ‘logic’ to try to explain it? I can't prove that God exists. When I said reason, I meant the opposite of faith...knowing for a fact that God exists. If Christianity wasn't logical or if it couldn't be understood, then who would believe it? The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ You don’t need to be a supreme being to understand that not believing in something is nowhere near the same thing as choosing to reject it and choosing to worship something else that also only exists within that same thing that you don’t believe in This bothers me a lot. Abra, the scripture is clear and I was clear, what is going on here with you? Are you purposefully ignoring what I posted? "The people who will be confused will be people who knew the Gospel, but instead choose to worship the anti-christ" You are pretending like that's not there...why? This scripture is talking about people who know the Gospel, reject the Gospel and instead worship the anti-christ. This scripture is not accusing those who reject the gospel of worshipping the anti-christ, it's clearly talking about those who choose to worship the anti-christ. That’s still a demonic God who would play such ‘guessing games’ with people’s souls. What kind of a God would expect people to guess if he’s real? And then punish them severely for having guessed wrong? You are missing an important point. It's not a guessing game. Think about this. These people are people who know the gospel. They know about the anti-christ, so they will recognize him for what he is and worship him anyways. After that, God has decided that those people will be condemned. They knew the choice they were making, they choose to worship the anti-christ over Christ. And besides, there are other pictures of God that aren’t so demonic. The pantheistic picture of God has set things up so that you can’t possibly be condemned no matter what you do. The pantheistic picture of God is truly unconditional love. . Pure Unconditional Love What is unconditional love? It's loving someone regardless of their actions or their feelings towards you. God feels that for all people. But what is your defintion of love? If your wife were addicted to drugs, would you try to make her quit or would you feed her habit? If your child became a serial killer, would you turn in your child or help cover up the crimes? Jesus said "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent" God punishes out of love. I don't want to get into the subject of hell, because to me, hell isn't what Catholics or many others describe. I think the Bible isn't very clear about hell, but there are many interesting clues. By the way, this isn’t the first time the biblical God controlled the actions of others. He also hardened the heart of the Pharaoh of Egypt when he sent Moses to free the slaves. And then after he hardened the Pharaoh’s heart he made terrible things happen to the people of Egypt too. Quite a game-playing God. Pharaoh had (without looking I can't be sure, but I'm close) seven chances. Each chance ended with Pharaoh lying to Moses and God that he would free the Jews. After the 7th (I think) lie, God decided that Pharaoh didn't get any more chances. You can say what you will, about the subject, but I think everyone should know that God didn't do this to play games, he did it because Pharoah was playing games. This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. |
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if God can eliminate evil but chooses not to (as the optimum solution to providing meaning to life) then the other arguments no longer apply! That's what gets me, it's ok if a believer doesn't know, because they can always use the faith argument. But if I point out a flaw you simply use the excuse that we cannot understand why God does what he does. When are people going to evolve and stop believing in fairy tales? |
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The creators of these religions were really good, you got to give them that. They have created a mindset that allows the religion to take over the lives and thoughts and actions of it's constituents.
Not only did they have to be master philosophers, theologists, manipulators (manipulators use fearmongering and hatemongering to control masses) but they had to have a far reaching effective story telling ability (well in the case of the bible they collected stories so maybe not the storytelling ability but the ability to comprise. Got to give it to them. I have seen on these threads so many people who are not willing nor will they ever be willing to step out of the box of christianity out of extreme fear and loss. Our thoughts are our own no god owns them nor can any other person own them. If we choose to give others that power over us then we refuse to step out of our own shackles. I do not fear a devil for he is a character in a story book, I do not fear an anti-christ for he is a character in a story book. Now if you would like to discuss these characters without reverence and totality then I would be glad to. But to think about it, just by the fact these characters were written into the bible, then by this premise alone god created evil in a christian bible sense. |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Sat 02/16/08 11:39 AM
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Even if he is doing this for a reason he is still telling a lie. I know you will say he is being deceptive but my Mama taught me that it is called lying. They already will believe the lie, God will prevent them from seeing the truth. Anyone who knowingly chooses the lie over the truth won't get a chance to choose the truth again. Second, these people are still alive when he interferes with them. He is even admitting that they may change their mind if they were given all the information. Why would the God that let Satan free to terrorize the earth and below for eternity all in the effort to not break his "free will" vow do this? It seems like this "free will" thing is important to him. Almost like his whole religion is based somewhat on "free will". Almost like the religion would be hollow with out it. Does everyone have free will through out their life or is free will just a thing that God sometimes gives and other times takes away? God will take away, not their free will, but their awareness of the truth. As I have said, these will be people who choose to worship the anti-christ will have knowledge or at least suspecions of who he is. When miracles start happening across the world, God will prevent these people from recognizing these miracles. Those people would repent, not because they regretted what they had done, but because they knew they were going to be punished. God wants worship through faith, not reason. These people could still change their own minds and repent on their own, but they won't come to repentance because of the miracles which God performs on the earth. If God will give free will to Satan why would his followers get less free will? They are just followers he is the Anti-Christ. Free will is a non-issue here. These people will still be able to make up their own minds, they just won't realize that God is working miracles on earth. If they come to repentance, it will because of their own hearts and minds and not because God is working miracles upon the earth. |
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Ok, if that's true then it's not necessary to believe in Christianity. Pure and simple. If disbelieving in the Gospels does not equate to rejecting God then Christians who have claim that non-believers are rejecting God because they don’t believe in Christianity are wrong. Clearly if a disbelieve in the Gospels does not equate to rejecting God, then God must have provided other ways for the non-believers to worship him. Okay Abra, this is getting boring. Quit this silliness. You can reject the Bible for any reason, but there is absolutely no need to twist it and pervert it. Those who reject the Gospel...Reject God. But that doesn't mean that they worship the anti-christ. It simply means they have rejected God. Do you know understand that we are talking about multiple concepts? Just because someone rejects God, doesn't mean they worship the anti-Christ. Those who reject God aren't saved, but they won't be prevented from seeing God's miracles on the world. Those who reject God and worship the anti-Christ, won't see God's miracles upon the world, because their minds will be deluded. |
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Sat 02/16/08 11:38 AM
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Evil Conflicts with the existence of God; therefore, either God doesn't care or God doesn't really exist. Pretty simple. I mean with all the evil in the world today don't you think a supreme being would step in and stop it? I found an example of this logic on the web- Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot, or he can but does not want to, or he cannot and does not want to, or lastly he can and wants to. If he wants to remove evil, and cannot, he is not omnipotent; If he can, but does not want to, he is not benevolent; If he neither can nor wants to, he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent; But if God can abolish evil and wants to, how does evil exist? Theodice... It offers two choices, God is omnipotent and not all good or God is all good, but not omnipotent. This is called a "False Dilemma" fallacy, because there is the correct choice which is ignored. God's love for his creations and his desire for them to have free will has the undesired side effect of his creations creating evil. It's impossible to give a being free will and choices and force them to make the right choice every time. Therefore, God's creations are not flawed in their creation, but they are flawed by their own actions. God didn't created evil, we do. God can't eliminate evil without either eliminating all free-willed moral agents or without removing free-will. Since God doesn't desire to do either, evil exists. God views eliminating evil as a greater evil than the evil eliminated. |
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I humbly bow to what I have received of this post spider... I felt your humility, my friend... I can only hope that mine, in return, is also felt... My intent is still sometimes misguided by the worldly fingerprint, and I apologize to any and all whom I have offended, at times, by any intentionally careless words... Much more often than not, my intent is not malicious is any way, as was the case this time also... The consideration of what good could come from any action taken is a wonderfully self-less way to think... If it is any consolation, you just earned some respect to be returned to you, from me... Just always remember my friend, negative and positive are completely relative to one's experiences. A perfect reflection of this worldly fingerprint which is upon us all, at one time or another, incorruptably so while viewing the cause through the cause... What you say here touched me deeply. I would hope we could all agree that being friends and loving one another is more valuable than any "benefit" we might gain from attacking each other's beliefs. As I have said many times, I believe in plurality of ideas. I believe in freedom of speech. I would not support any laws that prevented people from insulting the beliefs of others. But I think that we can raise society up and make it a better place. |
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But call my God a myth...call His Son Jesus Christ a myth and call the Bible a book of fables and you will have a fight on your hand.... My point exactly. Christians are prone to violence and threats. But let me ease your anger "sweetie." That "your" God is a myth is my opinion. That "Jesus" is a myth is my opinion. Everything I say and everything you say is an opinion. If you want to go to war over that I will give you my address. Jeannie And your entitled to that.....and I was not threatening you as a human being.....I was saying that to the effect that I believe anyone can believe as they wish....grant me the same....and I will proove in every way that God is who he is....That Jesus Christ is who he is....(historically proven sweets) and that the Bible is the inspired word of God.....And Christians once again labeling us as war mongers is something in your head because it just isn't true.... |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 02/16/08 11:53 AM
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It offers two choices, God is omnipotent and not all good or God is all good, but not omnipotent. This is called a "False Dilemma" fallacy, because there is the correct choice which is ignored. God's love for his creations and his desire for them to have free will has the undesired side effect of his creations creating evil. It's impossible to give a being free will and choices and force them to make the right choice every time. Therefore, God's creations are not flawed in their creation, but they are flawed by their own actions. God didn't created evil, we do. God can't eliminating evil without either eliminating all free-willed moral agents or without removing free-will. Since God doesn't desire to do either, evil exists. God views eliminating evil as a greater evil than the evil eliminated. This is very well put. For free will to exist, bad choices must be allowed. Christianity defines bad choices as "evil." You must have free will in every choice you make. Every single choice in your daily life, no matter what it is. Where Christians shackle the free choice idea is when they give you two choices. These are to live under the authority of the Bible or not. The only choice is to accept Jesus as your savior or not. If you choose to live under the authority of the Christain doctrines, however they are interpreted, you end up living under the thumb of the church's interpretations and not your own. There is where the church robs you of your free will. They begin to dictate details to you according to their man made doctrines and interpretations. When you hand over your final authority to the Church or even to the Bible, you have given away your power of individual free will and you have fallen into the trap of having someone or some church telling you how to live your daily life and what choices they think are good or bad. You let them decide. You are no longer making your own decisions. The idea of free will, sometimes gets in the way of the churches power over others. So they have narrowed down all your choices to only two. Believe in our doctrine or go to hell. Accept our savior or go to hell. Accept our Bible as your final authority or go to hell. That is the only choice they give you. That is not free will. Free will is the freedom to make each minuscule decision in your life for yourself without guilt being hung upon you by some outside authority. You are the decision maker. You are the final authority. When you give your authority over to any cult or religious authority you are giving over your free will. Jeannie |
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... |
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This logic is backward....It does not properly address the "fact" that "God" personally intervened & manipulated the situation to ensure Pharaoh's heart was so hardened that he would refuse to faithfully negotiate with Moses, so that "God" could fulfill his master plan of punishing Egypt for not worshiping him instead of their own "Gods". This little "lesson" is so contrived & underhanded that it is as prime an example of Machiavellianism as I have ever seen. The logic is NOT backwards. God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until after Pharaoh had lied several times, like I said, I think it was seven. Pharaoh had seven chances to do the right thing before God decided to use him for his own purpose. Reference supporting scripture please....I am going by Exodus 7:3...... This does once again not take rocket science....God and Moses gave pharaoh chance after chance after chance....and did he heed to their warnings no.....It took loosing his first born and even when Moses told him that this would happen already after he brought down plague after plague on Egypt...Pharaoh still said poo poo to Moses and to God. Do you even think for a minute of the different outcome had Pharaoh not been so stuborn and let God's people go from when Moses turned the river to blood......So the only person to blame for what happen to Egypt is Pharaoh not God. And again understand something. God is a loving God.....he has given the human race chance after chance to turn from their wicked ways.....that is love......But because people think that they can do it their way and justify it away....well by golly george then they will also pay the price for that......And that doesn't mean that I don't or every other Christian doesn't sin on a daily basis....we do....we just know right when we do....and we don't justify our sin....we ask through Jesus Christ to forgive us for our iniquities...... |
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