Abra;

I've been around the forums for a while now, and I'm starting to see a slight pattern developing in the posts that occur between you and Spider. There are many references to past statements that you have made to each other - many of which were misconstrued by you both due to a matter of semantics. It seems that when the "disagreement" gets a bit heated, one or the other of you drags up a past "quote", or reference to what one of you said about the other, and the point of your disagreement disappears into the quibble of the past.

As an outside observer, I have seen both you, and Spider alter your "delivery" of your idea's, though you both have remained steadfast in what you believe. You, as well as Spider - are much more succinct in explaining not only what you believe, but how you arrived at that conclusion. You are both scientists - are well versed in Logic and drawing conclusions from worthy premises - as well as quickly picking up on fallacious logic.

I would love to see you both just forget whatever it was you said those month's back - give each other the credit for having made the necessary changes to your deliveries so as to not mis-represent yourselves - and move on. You both have so much to offer these threads, that it becomes a disappointment for those of us who look forward to these contributions, to see you snipe at each other. I think that you both understand - and respect - each other more than you are willing to come out and say, so I look forward to the references of past post being a thing of the past - in and of itself.

AMEN TO THAT

Because I believe in absolute freedom and that God has granted all people free will, (because God Itself desires Freedom) under all and any circumstances, I believe that the one true "God" would never exert any "control" over what people do. A man may be inspired by God, but God would not "force" that man to do anything nor would God exert "control" over the doings of mankind. That too, is why "evil" is permitted to take place. (not exist)




An "omipowerful omiscient" God is capable of anything but in order to expand and grow and experience new things It (God) decided that freedom and free will were of paramount importance for his off spring. (all living beings) God does not control us like puppets. Freedom reigns.



Because of the above. God only wishes us to have free will. There are prices to pay for going against the laws set up in the universe called "cause and effect" which are automatic and systematic. The Universal mind (of God) works automatically according to law. Within that law, free will remains. No conscious entity has the right to interfere with the free will of God. The free will of God was given to mankind. It is the same. The reason it is the same is because God lives in and through Its creation. If God were to take free will from Its children then God would be taking it away from Itself.



God is. God is all powerful. But God chooses to grant free will to Itself. Any God (and there are many entities under God who claim to be the all powerful God) ...any God who would exert control over another... is not the one true God. The one true God grants free will to all that earn it by being responsible and by being somewhat self aware. All other creatures operate via DNA programing, but to some extent still are capable of making choices, having thoughts, etc.





Whew! I hope I am understanding your question above. I will try to answer according to my understanding.

1. The above question assumes the Bible is indeed "God's word"
I do not assume that.

2. In the beginning was the word....

3. The "word" of God is everywhere. Ask and it is given.

4. To limit the meaning of "the word of God" and confine it to a man written, man inspired book is like trying to put the ocean into a teacup. And that is putting it mildly.

5. God allows and watches. God is not obsessed with "maintaining control" of individuals. God lives within us and inspires us from within, but ultimately we are allowed freedom of choice.



Jeannie

An omniscient being cannot learn, because there is no information that is not known.

Man is free to manipulate anything at his will. That is free will. That free will is unconditional. Man is free to destroy the world if he so chooses.

That does not mean that God is small or incapable of maintaining the very word (you assume) he wishes his creation to have access to.

It means that God has unconditionally given mankind, (within which he lives and has his being,) free will.

Jeannie

I am sorry I did not actually address the actual question here.

I think it is "unrealistic" to think that God would only choose a few people to write inspired works. I think God inspires all people who write spiritual works that benefit mankind. I think all works of art and literature are inspired by the spirit of God within. Some of them are not pure as they are filtered through smaller minds. Some are great works. It all depends upon how pure the channel is.

What Christians will tell you is that this one Book is the only one inspired by God. That is unrealistic.

Jeannie

I would agree that many things are inspired by God everyday. I also agree that the bible is written by men. But divine inspiration is also evident in the bible.

The bible is an ancient guide filled with truths about God and humanity and life after death. It is a compilation of stories that are debated around the world and are important.

It isn't something to worship in itself yet it is to be revered and studied because it tells of things about the past, present and future that are important lessons.

Some of the greatest truths it reveals is that we are all part of God our creator and that he loves us. The 2nd best part is that life isn't just a short finite flesh existance. The 3rd part is knowing that someday all things consdered bad and evil will no longer exist.

I strongly believe a mere mortal couldn't have possibly just made up life after death or God...or the truths about it without either experiencing it, or relying on someone's experience or through divine inspiration and truths.

To me these things are unknowable any other way.

My beliefs are not just from a book as insinuated under Christianity traits but from a plethora of things. One of the most profound things was the experience of being in the other deminsion through a brief encounter with death personally.

Witnessing God working through people. Life experiences in general both good and bad. The bible's teachings, my exploration and studies of theology, different religions, cults, beliefs, etc. Some interesting stuff for sure.

To know or feel God is not dependent on the Bible, as God lives and breathes and has its being in all things.

You can open a direct channel to God by expressing and feeling a deep sense of gratitude for all that you have been given.

Gratitude above all, will put you in touch with the divine presence that we know as God. Love and gratitude go hand in hand in experiencing God personally.

Information will come to you just about anything if you ask for it and it comes through many channels. God did not die and leave only one book for mankind. God lives here and now.

Jeannie

Eljay,

The only thing I can say in reply to this is that the Spider is the one who’s constantly claiming personal foul.

Then he turns around an insults others by claiming to ‘correct’ their views. He acts like his opinions are ‘correct’ and everyone else is wrong. I think anyone would be insulted if the person they are talking to is constantly claiming that they are ‘correcting’ your opinions. That’s the epitome of arrogance.

Well, maybe not. He doesn’t stop there, he claims to speak for all Christians which is absurd. I’ve seen you differ from Spider on various points, yet you don’t seem to be willing to take a stand for your own voice now and simply say, “Spider doesn’t speak for me”. That’s really all you need to say. You don’t need to engage in an argument with him about the specifics. If he questions how you differ just tell him that you’re not a verbatim fundaments. Because he most certainly is! That has been well-established over the past months. For him to make an about-face on that would be paramount.

Unless, of course, he’s converted you to become a verbatim fundamentalist too, but that wasn’t your stance a while back.

I realize that you may view the discussion between Spider and myself as “believer versus non-believer” , but I can assure you that this is not at all what is going on here. Spider is taking an absolutists fundamentalist approach to the religion, I would denounce that kind of mentality with respect to anything (religious or not).

The point that you seem to be missing here is that Spider wouldn’t stop if all-of-a-sudden all non-believers were to disappear from the earth. He would then continue on to argue with the believers about how they believe! He wouldn’t be happy until everyone agreed with his personal interpretations of the Bible. He’s basically a fascist.

Are you supporting Christianity as fascism? Because that’s the way Spider is preaching it.

This kind of fanatical fascist approach to your religion can only result in the rise of another dictatorship not unlike the one that had been run by Hitler. Anyone who doesn’t agree with the fascist dogma must be converted or consider to be an enemy of God.

This is the danger of a religion that turns spirituality into a war between the Gods.

And clearly the Christian God is having a war with Satan and the Anti-Christ.

The Christian God is at WAR and is enlisting soldiers.

As far as I’m concerned Eljay, the very fact that Spider becomes egotistically insulted by those who don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, proves to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that he can’t have the spirit of Jesus in his heart. Jesus wouldn’t become angry or upset by people who were have difficultly believing that the Bible is true.

After all, even God himself could not become angry with someone who doesn’t believe something. He would instead be asking things, like, “What is it that you don’t believe. Maybe I can’t explain it to you in a way that will make it believable for you”

The idea of getting angry or insulted by because people they don’t believe something its ludicrous.

That kind of mentality can only come from someone who is trying push something onto others and is becoming frustrated because they won’t yield to his authority.

No one gets upset just because someone finds something impossible to believe unless they have an ulterior egotistical motives for pushing those beliefs onto others.

In other words, Spider can’t claim to be selflessly trying to save other people’s souls and simultaneously claim to be personally egotistically insulted when they don’t buy it.

Those two concepts just aren’t mutually compatible.

"Respect My Authoritay!" - Cartman (South Park)

I agree with this. I don't believe he was really insulted. I think spider was actually delighted to have something to squeak about and threaten me with. Or maybe he just likes to feel he pushed a few of my buttons. (I guess he did when he started defending and making excuses for the baby killers in the book of Joshua.)

He likes to argue and he knows how to disrespect people. (And he mocks people with his little laughing faces.)

I am glad he has found something to believe in. I hope he gets better soon.

Jeannie

I love Southpark.

Jeannie - edited for brevity.



But we are not forced to assume any "control" or "force" was needed. Just the ability to chose men who would get it right.
It is always "assumed" that the bible was wriiten by "men", and therefore subject to inaccuracies. This is a stretch of logic to assume that man was incapable of "not" making a mistake in this.



How can an omniscient God "expand and grow"?



What has this got to do with the bible representing the true word of God?



I'm not sure where this idea of God exerting control over anything has to do with the theme of man's documenting the word of God - and getting it right.




As to your points -

1) It is presented as a premise. In order to invalidate, it would follow that logic would dictate that the bible be false in order to establish the premise as a false one. You merely state it's not, but what invalidates the premise that leads you to this conclusion?

2) Following this quote through, you will discover that the word of God which was from the beginning - was Jesus.

3) The "Word of God" is Jesus. If we're using the bible as reference.

4) You say "man written", as though it's inception was derived from man. But - in the case of the New Testament - it was an account of the life of Jesus, His ministry, and his teachings.
Not a story - but an account. What would indicate that man had anything to do with it's inspiration.

5) Agreed - yet when the idea of God inspiring man to write down what He wishes, this seems to be unacceptable. So, is it assumed that God would not know that those that he inspired to write the scriptures would not somehow decide to write whatever they wished in the middle of it?

lj

1. According to my belief, the universe is God. It is the body of God and it is conscious, aware and alive.

2. The Universe is growing and expanding. If it were not, then it would be static or even worse, it would be shrinking and dieing.

3. If it were shrinking and dieing it would have died a long time ago.

What grows in the universe are the number of points of perception. (This would be the number of souls or conscious parts that make up the body of God.)

These parts constantly split and expand. They are unaware that they are God. They are permitted to take on many forms, and eventually they gather enough information to become self aware and create bodies and environments in which to live and grow.

The Universe expands.

Jeannie

I don't mean to say that the Bible is "false." I don't know how much that is written in the Bible is false or how much is true. (I do know that our own, more recent history books are completely false in their depiction of a lot of history. Many of these history books have been taken out of the schools and rewritten.)

Back to the Bible:
My belief is that the Bible is not "God's Word." Especially "God's only word." and especially "God's last word and the final authority."

Because I see "THE WORD" to be much more than a book. (Whatever or whoever wrote it.)

As I have said before, God is not dead. He did not write a book and then leave the earth to let us figure out what it meant. God is here now. His word is everywhere. It is not confined to a book.




If you are using the Bible as a reference, you can say :
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God."

The bible also says:
"God is Love"

Therefore God=Love and the word=Love Jesus preaches: Love.

Love is the Word.



Men wrote the "account." How complicated is that?



I do not know what God knows or does not know. God grants free will to all unconditionally. God allows and watches. Man does as he chooses, inspired or not.

Jeannie

If a 'God' would intervene, as the Bible depicts that 'God' has and does, quite frequently, then what would constitute as the measure necessary for this divine intervention?

With any honest contemplation, this question alone dispells any reasonable and logical process which could lead to one's arrival at any conclusion thereof which could be attributed to a omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient 'God' which could control whatever 'God' chose to control.

That, my friends, is all it takes to logically disprove the Biblical version of what 'God' is...

No offense intended... just a little logical reasoning...

Divine intervention is not the same thing as "control" of people's free will.

The body of God, for me, is made up of infinite conscious beings and forms of life, which all are connected and all live and work under the laws of attraction and manifestation. These laws allow thinking centers to attract and manifest certain experiences into their individual lives.

We are not merely humans having one life on one planet. We are spiritual beings having a human experience in a holographic type reality in a holographic type body. Our real self is the watcher and the learner who watches over our individual progress.

Divine Intervention:
It happened to me. I would have been killed had it not have happened. I attribute my higher self with saving my life. It did this twice in my life, simply because it was not ready to let this life end. (It is me.) It is aware of me, but I am not aware of It.

I was about to make a left turn on a two way highway that would have killed me and my little brother, when time stopped.

I was given vision of the accident where I was killed. I was given this vision in a flash of light about ten times. I argued with this vision. I said, "I looked in my rear view mirror and there was nothing coming."

A voice answered. It was my own inner voice. I knew it was my own voice. It said to me: "What would it hurt for you to look over your shoulder?"

I agreed to look over my shoulder.

As soon as the bargain was struck, I was back in normal time. As promised, I looked over my left shoulder. That second saved my life. A truck going real fast zoomed past.

For me, that was "divine" intervention. But I don't claim that it was the highest God. It was my higher awareness watching out for me.

Jeannie

Jeannie...



Great share!!!

I, for one, do not believe in the notion of 'free will'...

Conditioned(conditional) response exists with(for) all... no if's, and's, or but's about it...